|
The recording of this conversation
was, like the one with
Kalundi Mango, occasioned by our work on the translation of the Vocabulaire
de ville de Elisabethville. For photographs of Baba Léon, and
further information on setting, participants, issues of language choice in the
text, and transcription conventions, see the Introduction
to The times of the Vocabulaire: Commentary on a conversation with Baba Ngoie
Léon, Journal of Language and Popular Culture in Africa 2(1).
Material in languages other than French is given in italics. As the sound-recording
shows, Baba Ngoie's French was characterized by "interference" from
the Bantu languages he spoke (mainly kiLuba and Katanga/Shaba Swahili, K/ShS).
As regards French orthography, I did mark certain prominent phonetic features,
such as l/d/r alternance (they appear in bold face) but otherwise I kept to
standards that Baba Ngoie would have followed.
| 1. N: [recording begins in mid-sentence] .... voyez: les noirs à Boma/ |
1. N: [recording begins in mid-sentence] ... see, the blacks at Boma. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: à l'école scolaire [?séculaire] de Boma: si y a pas moyen: eeh: mettez ces enfants: cet enfant: à l'école du gouvernement ici à Kisangani/ alors [claps] quand j'étais guéri: eeh: le missionnaile de Kisangani m'a mis dans le l'école adulte: et j'ai fait: [claps] deux ans à l'école adulte. On a dit que il est venu ici: il est venu ici: c'est pour aller: à l'école secondaire: scolaire [?séculaire] de Boma/ | N: At the Boma school center, they looked for a way [and came to the decision]: Put this child into the government school here in Kisangani. So, when I was well again, the missionary at Kisangani put me into the school for adults where I did two years. Then they said: "[This boy] came here on his way to the school center in Boma." |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: mais: comme il a étudié ici: il peut lester ici: | N: "But, since he studied here, he can stay here." |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: aider le gouvernement/ | N: "Help the government." |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| 2. N: alors m'ont parlé de baptême: du: ooh: mois je l'aime pas: il était: oui: et là y a: [hesitates] ahmmm: dans un pays là bas: eeeh: Bafwasende/ |
2. N: So they talked to me about getting baptized but I did not like that. There was, in a region up there, [a place called] Bafwasende. |
| F: aha: Bafwasende... | F: I see, Bafwasende. |
| N: ...?... | N: ...?.... |
| F: chez les pygmés là... | F: Where the pygmies live.1 |
| N: ...pour l'aider le gouvernement/ | N: [There I was] to help the government. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: et: [claps] parce-que: les: les habitants de ce coin: et: tous: et les enfants etcetera/ eh [pronounced like a command] alors le missionnaire dit: si c'est comme ça: il doit letourner au Katanga: [d'] où il est venu/ parce-que il ne peut pas continuer/ nous avions: nous avions à ce moment-là: un enseignant de: qui était madame ya André/ un Belge/ | N: And then, because -- the people who live there, all of them, and the children, etcetera -- [I had problems]. "Well," the missionary said, "if this is how it is he must return to Katanga where he came from. Because he cannot go on." At that time, we had a teacher, the wife of [a certain] André, a Belgian. |
| F: mmm/ | F: I see. |
| N: une Belge/ eh bien: on a dit que tu ne peux pas: tu ne peux pas continuer à l'école: parce-que: il vient du Katanga/ et puis/ maintenant: nous sommes parler de baptême: ne veut pas: qu'il: qu'il est de le gouvernement à Bafwasende/ oui/ na zepota: okwende Kisangani/ en quelques kilomètres: je crois que: c'est à cent-cinquante kilomètres de Kisangani/ eh bien/ on a décidé que je letourne: ici: au Katanga/ alors: je suis parti de Kisangani: pour venir: à Lubumbashi: à Elisabethville/ | N: A Belgian. Well, it was said: "You cannot go on at the school. He comes from Katanga [they said]. And now, we talked about baptism [but] he refuses [saying] that he belongs to the government [post] at Bafwasende." Yes, [and then they said:] "Na zepota: okwende Kisangani [...?... go to Kisangani]. [Bafwasende] was [quite a few] kilometers, I believe 150 kilometers from Kisangani. Well, it was decided that I should return here to Katanga. So I left Kisangani and came to Lubumbashi, to Elisabethville. |
| F: ... ? ... | F: ... ? ... |
| N: on appelait Elisabethville: | N: they called it Elisabethville |
| F: Elisabethville: c'est ça/ vous êtes... | F: Elisabethville, that's it. You were... |
| 3.
N: quand je suis arrivé à Elisabethville: le gouvernement: le commissaire de district: voulait déjà que je travaille au passeports/ |
3. N: When I arrived in Elisabethville, the government, the district commissioner, already wanted me to work at the passport office.2 |
| F: qui était-ce? | F: Who was [the district commissioner]? |
| N: au bureau de passeports/ | N: At the passport office. |
| F: ...?... | F: ...?... |
| N: alors comme on a trouvé que: au bureau de passeports: c'était bien rempli: il n'y avait: il n'y avait: y avait: y avait pas la place/ alors: le: le commissaire de district il m'a dit: comme il n'y a pas la place au bureau de passeports pour le moment: et bien tu le: [quick] v: v: vous pouvez: trouver: l'emploi n'importe où/ pourquoi? parce-que: eeeh: j'étais l'enfant de ce coin-ci/ | N: Then it turned out that the passport office was fully staffed and that there was no place [for me]. So the district commissioner told me: "Because, for the moment, that passport office has no opening, you can find employment wherever [you want]." Why? Because I was originally from this region here. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: de cette province/ | N: Of this province. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: alors [claps]: j'ai essayé que je: essayez-vous: faites comme vous voulez: eeh: envoyez un mot dans un société: dans une: de la place: et vous selez toujours [claps] trouver le travail/ et si vous êtes venu avec ticket du gouvernement/ parce-que je suis venu de Kisangani: quittant Kisangani/ aller vers Lubumbashi à [?en] vingt-trois avec ticket du gouvernement/ | N: So I tried to... [The district commissioner had said:] "Try, do as you like, put in an application to a local firm, you will always find work [especially] with a government authorization." Because when I had left Kisangani to come to Lubumbashi, in [19]23 [or: at the age of twenty-three], it was with a government authorization. |
| F: ahah/ | F: I see. |
| 4. N: j'ai fait ma petit mot: comme j'étais appris á l'école: et j'ai envoyé à l'Union Minière/ |
4. I wrote my application, as I had been taught at school, and I sent it to the Union Minière. |
| F: ah oui/ | F: Ah, yes. |
| N: là au service de l'Union Miniére: au service du personnel/ | N: There, at the Union Minière, at the personnel department. |
| F: eheh/ | F: I see. |
| N: on m'a pris là-bas/ et on m'a donné un petit examen: eh: un peu quelques mots de Français: les quatre opérations etcetera: et on m'a pris come clerc: au bureau des ? ayments [aliments]/ | N: There they took me. They made me take a little exam -- a little French, the four operations [basic arithmetic], etcetera -- and I was accepted as a clerk at the office of provisions. |
| F: au bureau de? | F: The office of? |
| K: ...?... | K: ...?...3 |
| N: et puis: quand on était jeune: on était entre: jeunes: et puis: [with emphasis] fier/ on m'a dit: vous aulez septante-cinq francs par mois: et dou: eeeeh: la: la lation: la nature/ | N: Then [you must know], when one is young, among young people, one has his pride. I was told: "You'll get 75 francs per month and rations in kind. |
| F: oui oui/ bon... | F: Yes, yes. Fine... |
| N: la lation: la nature/ | N: Rations in kind. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: j'ai dis aaah: non: ça ne peut pas aller: moi jeune: venez: la nature/ qu'est-ce que je dois faire avec: avec la nature? avec le: la: la: la: lation en nature? Que: ah c'est comme ça: c'est la lègrement de l'Union Minière: vous viendrez avec votre sac vide: on le mettera la farine: saque s: eeh: saque samedi: dans: dans: dans la sac: et vous allez: le: lentrer avec: votre sac: de la farine: pour: eeh: votre nourriture/ bon/ on ne peut pas/ le: le monsieur dit: oh non: pourquoi? parce-que c'est la farine: je dis/ qu'on me donne eh: la: de l'argent/ que non: de l'argent on vous donne par le mois septante-cinque/ tandis-que par semaine: vous allez avoir de la nature comme les autres/ moi: je n'étais pas là: co: d'accord/ [claps] le monsieur m'a dit: vous allez essayer à travailler/ et j'ai travaillé: pendant une semaine/ monsieur était content/ seulement il m'a dit: je vais vous engager définitivement/ [claps] j'ai dit: non: moi: à cause de: de lations que vous ne changez pas: je ne peux pas [claps] continuer/ je dis: ah: moi je [claps] legrette alors: alors/ eh bien: j'ai quitté l'Union Minière/ | N: I said: "Ah no, that is not acceptable. Come one, I, a young person, [rations] in kind. What am I to do with rations in kind?" [He said:4] "That's how it is, that's Union Minière regulation. You come with your empty bag and they put in the flour, every Saturday, and you go home with your bag of flour, [it's] what you eat." Fine. "No," the gentleman said, "why [don't you want this]?" "Because it's flour," I said, "the should give me money." "No," [he said,] "you get money, 75 [francs] per month whereas, per week, you are going to have rations in kind like [all] the others." Me, I could not agree to this. The gentlemen told me: "You are going to try and work." I worked for a week. But then he told me: "I am going to hire you for good." I said: "No, as far as I am concerned, because you don't change [your position on] the rations in kind, I can't go on." I said: "In that case, I am sorry." So I left the Union Minière." |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| 5. N: on m'a dit: allez essayer à la Banque du Congo Belge/ la banque: eux c'est les jeunes: eh: pour travailler/ alors: j'ai adressé: un petit mot: demande d'emploi à la Banque du Congo Belge/ |
5. I was told: "Try it at the Banque du Congo Belge. The bank, that's a place for young people to work." So I put in a application for employment at the Banque du Congo Belge. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: eh bien: c'est là: [slaps his knee] | N: Well, it was there... |
| F: c'est là: | F: It was there... |
| N: où [je] fus [slap] engagé: [slap] en mille neuf-cent vingt-trois/ | N: ... that I was hired in 1923. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: jusqu'à ces jours: je suis à Lubum: à Elisabethville/ tout-ce que on a fait ici: changé: des ...?...dévenus comme ceci comme cela/ eh bien: toujours en ma présence/ | N: Until today, I have been living in Lubum[ashi], in Elisabethville. Everything they did here -- there were [many] changes, ...?... [things] became like this or that, always in my presence. |
| F: oui oui/ oui oui/ oui oui/ baba... | F: Yes, yes....Baba...5 |
| 6. N: donc: il était mille neuf cents soixante1/ mm/ on dit [claps] vous aulez: l'indépendance: j'ai eu même quatre médailles: de service/ j'ai eu trois médailles de service: de la banqe: |
6. So, then it was 1960. Hmm. It was said: "You are going to have Independence." I got as many as four medals, for service. I had three medals for service from the bank. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: et puis une médaille: de: de guerre/ quarante: quarante-cinq/ | N: And then one medal of the war of 40-45... |
| F: vous avez fait la guerre? | F: You were in the war? |
| N: c'est tout [resumes] quarante: quarante-cinq/ de guerre: eeh [searching] deee: un peu de: | N: ...that's all [four]. 40-45, the war, [wait a moment] of... |
| F: de Kenya? | F: Kenya? |
| N: oui/ eh bien: ce guerre: moi je n'étais pas: je n'étais pas: eehm: soldat/ mais moi: j'étais un homme/ j'étais un jeune qui travaille à la banque/ alors j'ai eu: j'ai eu: le commandant ... ?....Nolbert: et qui était le plésident de la ...?... de l'association sportive de football à Elisabethville: moi: | N: Yes. Well, that war -- I was not it in the military. But I was a man, a youngster who worked at the bank. My commanding officer was a certain ...?... Norbert who was also president of the soccer sports association of Elisabethville. I... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: je étais pris comme: le premier vice-président du commandant ... ?... Nolbert: pour le football/ | N: ... I was appointed first vice-president for [the section] soccer, under commander ...?... Norbert. |
| F: ahah/ | F: I see. |
| N: eh bien: j'ai aidé le commandant/ pendant que les: pendant que les sol: les: les: les militaires étaient en guerre: | N: Well I helped the commander while soldier were in the war. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: et mois: j'ai aidé le commandant pour: lations des: des: des femmes des militaires/ | N: I helped the commander with the rations for the soldiers' wives. |
| F: ah: voilà/ | F: I see/ |
| N: et puis quand la guele était terminée: le commandant demandait aussi que: ce garçon doit avoir aussi: doit avoir aussi: le médaille/ eh? de la fin de: de la guerre/ | N: So then, when the war was over, the commander demanded that this young man also should have a war medal. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: pourquoi? parce-que il m'a beaucoup aidé pendant que les: les militaires étaient: | N: Why? "Because," [he said] "he helped me a lot while the soldiers... |
| F: ...?...[noise of a door closing; I react] | F:...?... |
| N: pendant que les militaires en guerre: eh bien: ce garcon: m'a aidé pour la lation de: de la famille des militaires/ | N: while the soldiers were at war. This young man helped me with [getting] the rations to the soldiers' families." |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: il a droit avoir ...?... une médaille/ alors j'ai eu une médaille aussi: de guerre/ | N: "He deserves a medal." So I also had a war medal. |
| F: de guerre/ ah/ | F: A war [medal]. |
| N: ça devient: quatre/ | N: That makes four [of them]. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: et tout ça était pillé: pendant des événements du Katanga: quand on a commencé les affaires de: de: dévenir: et au pouvoir: tout ça: on se battait: et on: eh bien moi je pris la fuite: | N: And all that was taken away during the Katanga troubles, when they began this affair about becoming [independent], [the struggle] for power, all that. They fought each other. Well, I fled. |
| F: oui/ oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: eh bien/ | N: Well. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: les médailles étaient pris avec tous les autres papiers dechirés jettés/ [claps] | N: The medals were taken away with all the other documents that were torn up and thrown away. |
| F: [aside to another person, then continues] mais: sasa baba: vous êtes: j'ai vu ici avant... | F: [aside to another person, then continues]. But now, baba, you are...Earlier I saw here... |
| N:
j'en ai encore peut-être une médaille qui les ... |
N: Perhaps I still have one medal... |
| K+F: [short exchange] ...?... | K+F: [short exchange]6 |
| N: ...une médaille qui leste/ et puis j'ai continué: à la banque: j'ai continué de travail à la banque: en soixante-deux: | N: ...one medal that is still there. So then I continued at the bank. I went on working at the bank [and in] '62... |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: je suis pensionné/ | N: I got my pension. |
| F: soixante-deux? | F: '62? |
| N: en soixante-deux/ | N: '62. |
| 7. F: aah/ mais: j'ai vu ici dans le: livret: que vous venez du district Kikondja/ |
7. F: Aah [now I have it]. I saw here in your work papers that you come from the district of Kikondja. |
| N: vous vous... | N: You, you ... |
| F: vous êtes: vous êtes né... | F: You are, you are born... |
| N: ...?... je suis de: de Kinkondja? | N: ...[saw that] I am from Kikondja? |
| F: de Kinkondja/ | F: From Kikondja. |
| N: [with emphasis] oui/ | N: Yes, indeed. |
| F: vous êtes né là-bas? | F: You were born there? |
| N: je s: je suis l'enfant de ce coin là: je suis né à Kinkondja/ | N: I am child of that region, I was born in Kikondja. |
| F: ahah/ aha/ | F: I see, I see. |
| N: eeeh/ mon père: eh: mon père est: eeeeh dans: est dans de ce: de cec: de ce village/ il est de Kinkondja: et moi je suis né là-bas/ | N: Yes. My father came from that village; he was from Kikondja. And I was born there. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes. Yes. |
| N:
eeeh: et je suis parti: à Kinkondja: en mille neuf cents dix/ |
N: I went away from7 Kikondja in 1910. |
| F: oui/ dix-huit/ mais vous aviez quel âge? | F: Yes. [In] '18. But how old were you [then]? |
| N: [at the same time] ...?... à dix-huit/ | N: [speaking at the same time] ...?... in '18 [or at 18]. |
| F: vous aviez quel âge? vous aviez quel âge? | F: How old were you? How old were you?8 |
| N: au village: il ya a un agent territorial: du poste: qui: le poste: enfin: c'est-à-dire: le: le: le buleau du territoire: était un peu à quelque kilomètres du village/ | N: [Stationed] in the village there was an agent territorial [who belonged to] the post, that is to say, the office of the territorial administration was at a distance of some kilometers from the village. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: mais: je dirais même pas beaucoup: mais: on dilait cinquante: cinquante: cinquante mètres: du village: jusque au: au: au bureau du territoire: | N: But, I would say, not even that far, maybe fifty meters [?kilometers] from the office of the territorial... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: de l'administration/ là: le blanc qui était là-bas: à cinq heures il vient se promener au village/ c'est là où j'étais pris par un Européen: à: à: ? en tenant son vélo: | N: ... administration. There [in the village] the white who was [stationed] there -- at five o'clock he would take a walk through a village. That is where I was picked up by a European, holding his bike. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: avec les autres enfants: suivre l'Européen pendant qu'il promène au village: etcetera/ | N: Together with the other children [we would] follow the European while he took his walk through the village -- you know how it is.9 |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: cet Européen: mais: m'a choisi: pour prendre: eh: des: des: des enfants: pour envoyer des enfants à l'école scolaire de Boma/ | N: This European chose me; he was [looking out for] children to send to the school center at Boma. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: eh bien: il a pris: il m'a pris: aussi: et: je me rappele encore: ooh: c'était le douze mars: le douze mars: mille neuf cents: dix-huit/ | N: Well, he picked me up, too, and I still remember, it was on March 12, 1918. |
| F: dix-huit/ | F: '18. |
| N: eh bien/ il est parti avec moi: avec d'accord du chef: avec d'accord du chef du village: mais mon père n'était pas: au courrant/ | N: Well, he left with me with the permission of the chief, with the permission of the chief of the village, but my father was not informed. |
| F: aah/ | F: Aah. |
| N: donc depuis lors: je n'ai plus letourné au village/ | N: So, since then I never returned to the village. |
| F: jamais? jamais retourné? | F: Never? [You] never returned? |
| N: mm? | N: Hmm? |
| F: jamais retourné/ | F: [You] never returned. |
| N: de: eh: je suis parti/ | N: Eh, I left. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: quand je suis parti: ce: ce monsieur: a: a essayé a avoir là les enfants: mais: il n'a pas dit exactement la: la verité/ il a dit ce: [does not finish] alors nous: à Luena: | N: When I left the village, this gentleman was looking out for children but I did not exactly tell the truth. I said ... [does not finish]. So we [went] to Luena... |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: Luena c'est quelques kilomètres... | N: ... Luena, that's some kilometers... |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: ...de Kinkondja/ après Bukama/ on allait ...?... là-bas en: en cours de loute le monsieur dit qu'il était malade/ il doit d'abord être soigné pal un médecin de: deeee: de Lu: de Luena: | N: ... away from Kikondja, after Bukama. That's where we were to go. When we were on the road the gentleman said that he was ill and that he first needs to be treated by a physician in Luena. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: et après: on vas voire ce qu'on vas faire/ eh bien/ on est allé chez: à Luena: le docteur du l'hôp[ital]: de: de: de ce coin-là: de: de Luena: docteur n'était pas là/ docteul était en tournant/ et ...?... le monsieur continue à dévenir très malade/ puis: qu'on a trouvé trop tard d'attendre le monsieur pour venir: à Luena: eh: il est encore en tournant/ le monsieur préférait: continuer pour avoir un médecin qui va lui soigner... | N: Afterwards we were going see what had to be done. Fine, so we went to the doctor was [responsible for] the hospital of Luena [and] for that region. [But] the doctor wasn't there. The doctor was making his rounds [in the region]. And this gentleman got seriously ill. Then it was found, that it was getting too late to wait until the gentleman came back to Luena from his rounds. The gentleman preferred to continue and find a physician who would treat him... |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: ... un agent territorial/ | N: ... a territorial officer. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: et puis: on quittait de Luena: descendre directement [claps] à Kongolo/ Kongolo: trois cent kilomètres de Kongolo: Lubunda/ là il y avait: un médecin qui soignait/ | N: So then we left Luena and went down directly to Kongolo. Three hundred kilometers out of Kongolo [there was] Lubunda. [In Lubunda] there was a physician who treated [the sick]. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: eh bien: eh bien/ le monsieur soignait [?soigné] là-bas/ | N: Well, the gentleman was treated there. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
|
[short interruption]
|
|
| 8. K: on ne sait pas maintenant plus de poser des questions? non? |
8. K: Are there no more questions to asked now? |
| F: oui oui/ oui oui/ baba: vous avez lu un peu ici dans ce Vocabulaire/ | F: Yes [there are]. Baba, you have read a little in this Vocabulaire here. |
| N: oui: oui oui oui/ | N: Yes, yes. |
| F: comment vous trouvez... | F: How do you find... |
| N: je: j'ai vu la plupart de tout ceci/ | N: All of this, most I have seen. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: ce sont des affaires qui est passé tourjours: devant moi/ | N: When these are affairs happened I was always there. |
| F: oui oui/ oui/ et vous trouvez c'est juste? | F: Do you find that [what the Vocabulaire reports] is correct? |
| N: pendant tout ce... | N: During all this... |
| F: c'est bien? c'est bien? | F: Is it correct? Is it correct? |
| N: tout ce qu'on parle ici... | N: All that is talked about here... |
| F: oui: | F: Yes. |
| N: j'étaist ici... | N: I was there. |
| F: ...vous étiez là/ | F: You were there. |
| N: tous ces Munongo: ou Kyombe ... | N: All [the affairs] of Munongo or Tshombe... |
| F: ... oui mais... | F: Yes, but... |
| N: j'étais là/ j'ai toujours été avec eux/ | N: I was there. I was with them all the time. |
| 9. F: même avant/ même avant: eh? vous êtes: j'ai une question: quand vous êtes arrivé ici: vous aviez quel âge? environ? |
9. F: Even before that. Even before that, right? You ... I have a question, when you arrived here, how old were you? About [how old]. |
| N: ah/...?... dans leeees: douze ans/ | N: Ah, ... ?... about twelve years old. |
| F: douze ans/ | F: Twelve years. |
| N: douze ans/ | N: Twelve years. |
| F: oui/ | F: Right. |
| N: un peu oui/ | N: Just about, yes. |
| F: vous étiez: en dix-huit: | F: In '18 you were... |
| N: douze ans/ | N: Twelve years. |
| F: en dix-huit: en dix-huit: vous aviez douze ans/ mm/ à cette époque: quand vous êtes arrivé à Elisabethville/ ça c'est quelque chose qui m'interesse/ est-ce que les gens: généralement: parlaient déjà le Swahili? quel langue est-ce qu'on parlait à cette époque? | F: In '18, in '18 you were twelve years old. Hmm. At that time when you arrived in Elisabethville -- this is something that interests me -- did the people already generally speak Swahili? What language did they speak at that time? |
| N: à Elisabethville: quand je suis arrivé: la plupart dans les gens: parlent: des: Kabanga/ | N: In Elisabethville, when I arrived, most of the people spoke Kabanga. |
| F: kiKabanga/ | F: kiKabanga. |
| K: kiKabanga/ | K: kiKabanga. |
| N: kiKabanga/ kiKabanga: c'est: c'est: ce: enfin: c'est: c'est: c'est une langue du pays: eeh: vers la Lodesie/ on l'appelait Lodesie/ maintenant c'est Zambia bien entendu/ | K: kiKabanga. kiKabanga, that is, well, it a language from the country toward Rhodesia. It used to be called Rhodesia, now it is Zambia, of course. |
| F: oui oui/ oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: eeh: ce Kabanga on appelait: menakuluma kupenda we na shalala pa upe wenaamba etcetera/ | N: Eh, this so-called Kabanga: menakuluma kupenda we na shalala pa upe wenaamba, to give you an example. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: et moi je connais aussi... | N: And I also know... |
| F: ... aussi le kiKabanga ... | F: ... also kiKabanga ... |
| N: aussi cette langue là/ | N: ... that language. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: on parlait Kabanga: on parlait tshiBemba: on parlait: eeehm.. | N: Kabanga was spoken, tshiBemba, and, wait... |
| K: ...?... | K: ...?... |
| N: ...kiLamba: et puis: on parlait: Kaonde: on parlait: eeh... | N: ...kiLamba. Kaonde was spoken, and... |
| F: en kiLuba? | F: kiLuba? |
| N: baLuba il n'y avait pas beaucoup/ | N: There were not many Luba. |
| F: non? | F: No? |
| N: non: non/ | N: No no. |
| F: non/ | F: No. |
| N: les Kasai: n'étaient pas là: | N: The [Luba from] Kasai were not here yet. |
| F: non non/ | F: No, no. |
| N: il n'y avait pas beaucoup/ tlès peux/ | N: There were not many, very few. |
| F: et les Européens? | F: And the Europeans? |
| N: eh? | N: Eh? |
| F: les Européens: les: les: les blancs? | F: The Europeans, the whites? |
| N: eeh/ | N: okay. |
| F: qu'est qu'ils parlaient: eux? Français: ou? | F: What did they speak? French, or? |
| N: aah: pour se: pour s'entendre ses: ses hommes? par example ses boys etcetera: vous demandez ce que les blancs employaient comme langue? | N: Ah, to communicate with his men? For example, his boys and others? You are asking which language the whites employed. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: Swahili? un peu de Swahili: mais beaucoup: c'est Kabanga/ | N: [Was it] Swahili? A little Swahili, but [for] many it was Kabanga. |
| F: Kabanga/ | F: Kabanga. |
| N: mais tandis que... | N: Whereas... |
| F: mais entre eux? les blancs... | F: But among themselves, the white... |
| N: les Belges/ les Belges/ les Belges parlaient un peu le Swahili/ | N: The Belgians. The Belgians. The Belgian spoke a little Swahili. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: parce-que: ils sortaient de ce côté là: vers: notre pays là: eeeh: vers Lualaba etcetera/ | N: Because they came from that part [of] our country there, toward the Lualaba, you know. |
| F: oui | F: Yes. |
| N: là on parlait le Swahili/ | N: There Swahili was spoken. |
| 10. F: à Kikondja: chez vous... |
10. F: At home in Kikondja... |
| N: à Kinkondja... | N: In Kikondja. |
| F: on parlait le Swahili? | F: ... did they speak Swahili? |
| N: le Swahili?/ | N: Swahili? |
| F: quand vous étiez... | F: When you were... |
| N: oui oui/ | N: Yes, yes. |
| F: ... petit? | F: ...little? |
| N: oui/ à Kinkondja on parlait le Swahili: un peu le: le Lingala/ | N: Yes, in Kikondja Swahili was spoken, and a little Lingala. |
| F: un peu le Lingala/ | F: A little Lingala. |
| N: oui: à cause des militaires/ | N: Yes, because of the military. |
| F: des militaires oui/ | F: The military, yes. |
| N: eeh/ parce que: y a: y a: c'est un poste/ | N: Yes, because [Kikondja] was a [military] post. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: c'est un poste: fondé: je sais: je ne sais p: je ne sais plus: mille neuf cents et dix ou quelque chose comme ça: je ne sais pas: même avant mille neuf cents et dix/ | N: It was post, founded -- I don't know any more -- in 1910 or something like that. I don't know, even before 1910. |
| F: mais... | F: But... |
| N: mais: le: le: hôpital de: de Kinkondja existait même eeeeh: je sais pas la date exacte: mais avant mille neuf cents six: le bureau territorial était déjà fondé à Kinkondja/ | N: The hospital at Kikondja existed already. But before 1906 the territorial office had already been founded in Kikondja. |
| F: ah oui oui/ oui oui/ | F: Ah, yes, yes. |
| N: mille neuf cents et six/ | N: 1906. |
| F: oui: ils sont venus vous avez dit du nord/ | F: Yes, you said they came from the north. |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| F: ils sont venus du nord/ | F: [So the Belgians] came from the north. |
| N: vous venez de: vous venez de: de: de Boma etcetera etcetera/ | N: You came from, you came from Boma and all those places. |
| 11. F: oui/ baba: eh: à l'époque: donc: vous êtes: à neuf heures du matin: vous vous rapelez encore: on vous a engagé à la banque/ maintenant: vous étiez le premier clerc/ |
11. F: Yes. Baba -- it was nine o'clock in the morning, you still remember this -- you were hired by the bank. You were the first [Congolese] clerk. |
| N: oui: mais... | N: Yes, but... |
| F: alors... | F: So... |
| N: c'est à dire: eh: vous demandez comment on travaillait?2 | N: That is to say, you are asking me how we worked? |
| F: non: non; j'ai une question: donc: vous étiez: il y avait d'autres: eh: d'autres Congolais: mais: plus bas/ | F: No, no. I have a question. So you were [the first but] there were others, other Congolese, but on a lower rank. |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| F: ils étaient ...?.../ plus bas/ | F: The were ...?... On a lower rank. |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| F: bon/ à la banque: à cette époque en vingt-trois: la langue: qu'on parlait/ c'était quoi? quelle: quelle langue? dans quelle langue est-ce qu'on parlait? c'était toujours le Français? | F: Fine. At the banks, in those days, in '23, what was the language spoken? Which language? Which language was spoken? Always French? |
| N: à la banque: je peux peut-être si vous comprendre bien: mais parce que: je... | N: At the bank. I should like to understand you correctly but because ... |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: je souffle les oleilles/ | N: ...I suffer from my ears... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: et je vous entends difficilement/ | N: ...and I have difficulties hearing you. |
| F: non/ | F: No [this shouldn't stop us]. |
| N: ...?... | N: ...?... |
| F: je vais: je vais dire encore un fois/ donc: quand vous avez commencé à travailler à la banque/ | F: I am going to say it again: So, when you began working at the bank... |
| N: oui... | N: Yes. |
| F: eh? | F: So? |
| N: on commence le travail à sept heules et demi/ | N: Work began at seven thirty.10 |
| F: oui/ alors... | F: Yes, so. |
| N: moi j'ai fait: là: j'avais: je tenais la liste/ | N: What I did was keep the list. |
| F: oui? | F: Is that so? |
| N: oui/ pour le personnel/ eh? | N: Yes, [the list] of the personnel. You understand? |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: il y avait deux cent cinquante personnel/ | N: There were 250 employees. |
| F: deux cent cinquante/ | F: 250. |
| N: alors: comme moi je tenais la liste pour le: savoir: chacun: état: était arrivé: à l'heure juste ou pas/ | N: So I kept the list to check whether everyone had come on time or not. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: là celui qui arrive en letard: on ...?.... | N: The one who was late...?... |
| F: oui | F: Yes. |
| N: deux francs/ | N: Was cut 2 francs. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: une chose comme ça: comme amende: qu'on lui rétirait... | N: Something like that; as a fine, they deducted... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: ...?... | N: ...?... |
| F: mais la langue: que vous parliez: c'était... | F: But the language you spoke, that was... |
| N: la langue: aaah: à la banque c'était: eh: Swahili: Kabanga un peu seulement: parce-que il y avait les Nyasa de: les gens qui venaient de: de: de la Lodesie là-bas/ eh? | N: The language, aah, at the bank it was Swahili, Kabanga but just a little because there were the [so-called] Nyasa, people who came from Rhodesia down there, you understand? |
| F: oui oui/ oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: alors c'est: c'est lui qui connaît de Kabanga: il parle de Kabanga avec: eeh: un capita que j'avais trouvé là-bas: eh? c'est le capita: il s'appele George Umponera: eh? de Nysrand/ | N: So that was someone who knew Kabanga. He would speak Kabanga with a foreman who I met there, you understand? He was the foreman, his name was George Umponera, right? From Nyasaland. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: eh/ alors/ eh: ooh: la banque a voulu bien que: tout le monde parle le Swahili... | N: Right. And then, well, the bank wanted everyone to speak Swahili... |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: ... et le Français/ | N: ... and French. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: parce-que: toutes ces sortes de langues: la banque n'as pas été d'accord/ | N: Because the bank did not approve of all [the other] kinds of languages. |
| F: non/ non/ non non/ | F: No, no. |
| N: on parlait de Swahili: et le Français/ | N: Swahili and French were spoken. |
| 12. F: oui/ eh: utusaidie baba/ tuko: tuko na maul[izo]: eh: eh: oui: nous avons encore des questions sur ces listes là/ eh? |
12. F: Yes. Well [in Swahili], help us baba, we have [more] questions. [Back to French] Wait a moment. Yes. We still have questions regarding those there [in the Vocabulaire], right? |
| K: quelles listes? | K: Which lists? |
| F: il y avait par example la liste des gouverneurs/ mm? et dedans: ici [pointing] ce sont tous: les gouverneurs/ | F: There was, for example, the list of governors, right? And on it, here [pointing], those are all the governors |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| K: quel page là? | K: What page is that? |
| F: eeeh: quinze/ et là nous avions certaines lacunes eh? bon/ bale: ils donnent: le premier gouverneur: le deuxième: le troisième: ainsi de suite/ le premier: bwana: bwana: "Bwana Dipeji"/ | F: Wait. Fifteen. And there we had certain gaps, you understand? Fine. [In Swahili] Those [back to French]... They list the first governor, the second, the third, and so on. The first one [is called: "Bwana Dipeji." |
| K: c'est Lippens/ | K: That's Lippens. |
| N: Lippens/ | N: Lippens. |
| F: Lippens/ | F: Lippens. |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| F: donc: le deuxième: Tombeur [actually "Tombert"]/ | F: Then the second one, "Tombert." |
| N: he? | N: Who? |
| F: Tombeur/ | F: Tombeur. |
| N: oui/ oui/ | N: Yes, yes. |
| F: le troisième: one demande: "Bwana Mangala"/ | F: The question [we have] is about the third one, "Bwana Mangala." |
| K: ni nani huyu? | K: [in Swahili] Who was this? |
| F: ni nani huyu? | F: [in Swahili] Who was this? |
| N: bwana Mangala? | N: Bwana Mangala? |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: niii: c'était: était le: le: ça son nom juste? son... | N: [in Swahili, hesitates] That was...[back to French] Was that his real name? His... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: bwana Mangala: bwana Mangala: c'était: on: les noms: les: les noms justes comme les autres: là... | N: Bwana Mangala, bwana Mangala. That was...the names, the real names like the others there... |
| F: oui? | F: Yes? |
| N: parce les autres: j'ai: j'ai entendu depuis tlès longtemps: eeeh/ | N: Because the other I have heard long ago, yes. |
| F: oui oui/ mais ça: vous rappelez pas? Mangala? | F: Yes, yes. But this [one], you don't remember? Mangala? |
| N: [to himself] bwana Mangala: c'est qui ça? c'était le gouverneur/ il s'appelait Mangala? non/ je connais un gouverneur: et qui est mort: eeh: qui est mort: eeh: quand il était entré en Europe: il est mort à Paris: mais: si vous donnez les noms... | N: [to himself] Bwana Mangala. Who was this? He was the governor. He was called Mangala? No. I do know a governor who died, who dies, wait, when he returned to Europe. He died in Paris. But, if you give me the names... |
| F: ah ben... | F: Alright. |
| N: je vous dirai les gouverneurs que je connais/ | N: ...I'll tell the governors I know. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: bwana Mangala: là je... | N: Bwana Mangala -- there I [must pass]. |
| F: non/ | F: No, [you don't know that one]. |
| N: je vais voir le ... | N: I'll see [about the others]. |
| F: le cinquième c'est "Bureau"/ | F: The fifth was "Bureau." |
| N: mm? | N: Who? |
| F: eh: eh: le cinquième... | F: Wait, the fifth... |
| K: bwana Bureau alikuwaka na... | K: [in Swahili] Bwana Bureau, he had a... |
| F: bwana Bureau/ alikuwaka na ndevu/ | F: [in Swahili, reading from Vocabulaire] Bwana Bureau, he had a beard. |
| N: oui/ je le: oui/ oui/ | N: [in French] Yes, I [know] him. Yes, yes. |
| F: na ndevu sana: banasema/ | F: [in Swahili] A long beard, they say. |
| N: mm? | N: What? |
| F: alikwa na ndevu sana/ bwana Bureau/ | F: [in Swahili] He had a long beard. Bwana Bureau. |
| N: alikuwa na ndevu/ | N: [in Swahili] He had a beard.11 |
| F: oui/ | F: [in French] Yes. |
| K: alikuwa na ndevu/ | K: [in Swahili] He had a beard. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| K: alikuwa na ndevu mingi/ jina yake ni nani? | K: [in Swahili] He had a lot of beard. What was his name? |
| N: peut-être/ | N: [in French] Perhaps. |
| F: Bureau/ Bureau/ | F: Bureau. Bureau. |
| N: oui: bwana Bureau: eh: eh:... | N: Yes, Bwana Bureau, well, well.... |
| K: il y avait un monsieur ... | K: There was a gentleman... |
| N: je crois avoir entendu ce nom là Bureau/ | N: I believe I heard that name, Bureau. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes |
| N: et puis: continuez les autres gouverneurs/ | N: And then, go on with the other governors. |
| F: ah oui: puis: "Maron" [actually "Maro"]? | F: Alright, then [there was] "Maro." |
| N: oui/ je le connais/ | N: Yes, I know him. |
| F: "Kaiser" [actually "Caissele"]? | F: "Kaiser." |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| F: "Ziegler de Ziegleck" ["ZENGE-NIZENGENE"] | F: "Ziegler de Ziegleck." |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| K: ...?... | K: ...?... |
| F: Ziegler/ | F: Ziegler. |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| K: oui oui oui/ moi je connais/ | K: Yes, yes, I know him. |
| F: "Wauthion" [WAUCSTOU]? | F: "Wauthion." |
| N: eh? | N: Who? |
| F: Wauthion/ | F: "Wauthion." |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| K: oui oui/ | K: Yes, yes. |
| F: "Paelinck" ["Palingis"]? | F: "Paelinck." |
| N: eh? | N: Who? |
| F: Paelinck/ mafuta/ wanasema mafuta/ Paelinck/ | F: Paelinck. [in Swahili] The fat one, they say, the fat one. Paelinck. |
| K: monsieur Paelinck: alikuwaka administrateur zamani/ | K: Mr. Paelinck, [in Swahili] he was an administrator long ago. |
| F: Paelinck/ | F: Paelinck. |
| N: il était gouverneur ici? | N: He was governor here? |
| K: oui oui/ alipata bugouverneur Paelinck/ minmuyua/ | K: Yes yes. [in Swahili] He got the office of governor, Paelinck. I know him. |
| N: et le: l'autre... | N: And the other one... |
| F: et puis: le dernier c'est Schöller/ | F: And then, the last one is Schöller. |
| N: eh? | N: Who? |
| F: Schöller/ | F: Schöller. |
| N: oui oui oui/ | N: Yes, yes. |
| F: le dernier/ kiisha: njo mwisho/ uhuru/ | F: The last one. [in Swahili] Then, that's the end. Uhuru [independence or freedom]. |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| 13. F: uhuru/ alors: ah oui/ maintenant les police: nous avons ici aussi: une liste: eh? |
13. F: Uhuru/ So then, yes, now the [chiefs of the] police. We also have a list, right? |
| N: une... | N: A? |
| F: ça c'est une liste: des commisaires de police/ | F: This here is a list of the commissioners of police. |
| N: oui oui oui oui/ | N: Yes, yes, |
| F: bon/ | F: Fine. |
| N: j'ai vu tous ces Munongo etcetera: Tyombe: tout ça/ | N: I have all those Munongos, Tshombes, all that. |
| F: oui: ça oui/ ça oui/ papa [trying to get his attention] mais: ici: on dit/ le premier commissaire de police/ | F: Yes, that you did. Papa [trying to get his attention]. But here is said, the first commissioner of police. |
| N: de premier commissaire de police? | N: The first commissioner of police? |
| F: oui/ on dit: "bwana Maundrasi"/ | F: Yes, it is said "bwana Maundrasi." |
| K: ni nani? | K: [in Swahili] Who was this? |
| F: ni nani huyu? | F: [in Swahili] Who was this person? |
| N: c'est possible/ | N: It's possible. |
| F: Maundrasi/ | F: Maundrasi. |
| N: le premier commissaire de police? | N: The first commissioner of police? |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: c'est possible: parce-que: il y a les noms qui s...?... qui sont sautés... | N: It's possible, because there are names I forgot. |
| F: oui oui... | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: au temps... | N: At the time... |
| F: vous vous rappelez pas? | F: You don't remember? |
| N: oui/ | N: No. |
| F: Maundras? non/ | F: Maundras? No. |
| N: je me rappele pas: mais enfin ... | N: I don't remember, but after all... |
| K: ...?... | K: ...?... |
| N: je crois que les autres... | N: I believe the others... |
| F: oui... | F: Yes... |
| N: ... étaient appelés comme ça/ peut-être il avait deux noms: le nom Européen... | N: ... were called like this. Maybe he had two names, his European name... |
| F: oui oui oui/ mais oui/ mais oui/ | F: Yes, yes. Of course. |
| N: parce-que: la plupart: quand je connais: beaucoup: les noms européens/ | N: Because most of those I know I mostly know by their European names. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: tandis-que les: les: les noms qu'on donne: bwana Kitoko: ou bwana muzuri: tout ça... | N: Whereas the names that are given, bwana Kitoko [the elegant bwana] or bwana muzuri [the good/handsome bwana], to all that... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: ...je ne faisais pas beaucoup attention/ | N: ... I did not pay much attention. |
| F: non/ | F: No. |
| N: je connais beaucoup les noms: bwana Robert: ou ou Paeling: ou quelque chose comme ça: je connais/ | N: I know many names, bwana Robert [for example], or Paeling -- names like that, I know. |
| 14. F: oui/ il y a ici: aussi: l'histoire: de baba: François/ bana: banasema baba François/ |
14. F: Yes. Then there is here this story of baba Francois. [in Swahili] The say baba François. |
| N: François: c'est: qu'est-ce qu'il était? | N: François, that was -- what was he? |
| F: celui là... | F: That one... |
| N: qui l'était qui? | N: Who was he? |
| F: c'était un Kasaïen/ | F: He was someone from Kasai. |
| N: eh? | N: What? |
| F: c'était un Kasaïen/ from Kasai/ | F: He was a Kaisaian, from Kasai. |
| K: c'est quelle page ceci? | K: What page is this? |
| F: oui? | F: Yes? |
| K: quelle page? | K: What page? |
| F: sais pas où/ celui qui attrappait un blanc... | F: I don't know where. The one who caught a white... |
| K: avec le ... | K: With the... |
| F: avec sa femme/ | F: ...with his wife. |
| K: oui/ | K: Yes. |
| F: il a tué le blanc: ou l'ami du blanc: et puis on l'a: pendu/ vous vous rappelez de cette histoire? | F: He killed the white man, or his friend, and then he was hanged. You remember that story? |
| N: [pause] je crois avoir entendu: oui: je crois avoir entendu cette histoire: eh je: je me rappele pas exact: tlès bien: parce-que il y a beaucoup des jours: je crois que j'ai: un peu oublié/ | N: [pause] I believe I heard -- yes, I believe I heard that story. I don't remember exactly, [not] very well, because it was long and I believe I forgot a little. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: parce-que il y a: il y a la partie un peu de la connaisance qui est diminuée à cause de mon age/ | N: Because there is a part of knowledge that is a bit diminished because of my age. |
| F: oui oui oui/ oui oui/ oui oui/ vous avez... | F: Yes, yes, of course. You have... |
| N: on parlait de ça/ | N: There was talk of that. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: on parlait/ | N: There was talk. |
| F: vous avez... | F: You have... |
| N: on parlait/ | N: There was talk. |
| F: on parlait de ça? | F: There was talk of that? |
| N: oui: on parlait de ça: mais: on parlait de ça: mais il ya longtemps: il y a quelque chose qui est un peu sauté/ | N: Yes, there was talk of that, there was talk of that. But it was long ago, there is something that forgot a little. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: oui/ bien entendu: si je me rappele: il y a longtemps: il y a eu: ?déjà [?des gens]: qui a trouvé quelqu'un avec sa femme: puis: exactement: je ne sais pas: si il a été pendu: je ne sais pas: ...?... je sais plus: je tiens plus bien mais: on dirait... | N: Yes, of course [his memory comes back], I remember -- it was long ago -- there was person who found someone with his wife. And then, I don't know exactly [what happened] -- was he hanged? I don't know any more, I don't recall this [very] well, but it would seem... |
| F: on a parlé/ | F: There was talk. |
| N: on dirait il peut avoir quelque chose comme ça/ | N: It would seem that something like this happened. |
| 15. F: puis: eh: pour longtemps: ici à Elisabethville: mm? |
15. Then, let me see, for a long time, here in Elisabethville, right? |
| N: Kinkondja? | N: Kikondja?12 |
| F: non/ à Elisabethville/ | F: No, Elisabethville. |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| F: on a emmené: Simon Kimbangu/ | F: They brought Simon Kimbangu here. |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| F: en prison/ | F: To the prison. |
| N: celui là est arrivé: bien: je connais... | N: He arrived, yes, I know. |
| F: oui? | F: You do? |
| N: j'y étais: j'étais toujours à la banque: et qu'il est arrivé: Simon Kimbangu/ et il avait: les livres: il a cléé: eh: eh: ce livre: fait les miracles/ | N: I was there. I was at the bank, as always, [when I heard] that he had arrived, Simon Kimbangu. And he had books. He created that book [that] worked miracles. |
| F: comment? | F: How so? |
| N: livres de la religion/ | N: Religious books... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: qu'il est venu avec/ | N: ...he had with him when he came. |
| F: eeh/ | F: I see. |
| N: le livre là: fait des milacles/ quand il prie/ | N: This book works miracles. When he prays. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: eh? alors: il: il trouve: eh: ce qu'il: ce qu'il demande/ | N: You understand? He finds what he asks for. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: pal example/ il arrive dans un coin: il arrive dans un endroit: et demande de quoi à manger/ | N: For example, he comes to a region, to a place and asks for something to eat. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: mm? il y en a pas/ mais: quelque moments après tout est là/ etcetera/ alors les: les Belges/ qui ?s'entêtaient [?sont été]: les chefs/ | N: You understand? There is nothing. But a few moments later everything is there, this sort of thing. Then the Belgian who were the bosses... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: et les autorités/ | N: ... and the authorities... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: eh: disons: en un mot: les autorités/ trouvent que: allez: où est le livre: [contemptuous] ah voilà le livre/ | N: Well, let's say in one word, the authorities, they found [something wrong with this]: "Come on," [they said] where is the book. Ah, [contemptuous] there is the book." |
| F: ah oui/ ils on em: ils on emmené le livre? | F: Ah yes. They took the book away? |
| K: arraché/ | K: Grabbed [it]. |
| F: arraché/ | F: Grabbed [it]. |
| N: le: les livres là/ | N: That book. |
| F: oui/ oui oui/ | F: Yes. Yes. |
| N: mais après avoir enlevé ce livre: les types: les: n'étaient: ne: ne: eeeeh: n'étiez [=n'étaient] pas bien/ | N: But after they had taken this book away, those guys were -- how shall I say? -- they were no good. |
| F: aah/ | F: I see. |
| N: les types commençaient à bavarder: eeh: alors: ont du: vvv: nous vous mettons en prison/ | N: Those guys started talking a lot and then [they told him]: "We put you in prison." |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: alors: on collait Simon: directement en prison/ ou il [a] ?regretté à cause de son livre: là: etcetera: mais le gouvernement tenait le livre/ mm [claps]/ ce livre: [on] parlait que le livre: c'était: [makes new start] le livre: quand il prie/ | N: So Simon was thrown into prison right away. Where he missed his book, as you can imagine. But the government kept the book. And that was it. There was talk about that book. This book, when he prayed... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: il demande quelque chose/ | N: ...and asked for something... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: dans ce livre: il le voit/ | N: ... he sees it. |
| F: il le voit/ | F: He sees it. |
| N: ce qu'il demande/ | N: What he asks for. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: à peu près chez les ?eaux: on dit: depuis Boma: quand il a quitté Boma: ce: il avait déjà ce livre là/ | N: More or less at...?..., it is said, from Boma, when he left Boma, that he already had that book |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: là-bas/ à Boma: et qu'il est venu avec/ la plison: ici: il était en prison/ pour connaître exactement l'affaire: la discussion entre la: son livre de la religion là/ | N: Down there, at Boma. And that he had it with him when he came to prison here. He was in prison for knowing exactly about this affair, the controversy there about his religious book. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: ah: eh? et les: les autorités trouvaient quelque chose: mm... | N: Ah, and the authorities found something, hmm,... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: que moi je peux pas vous dire grande chose: parce que vous comprenez [with emphasis] je connais tel type est arrivé à Lubumbashi: mais: en prison/ | N: ...about which I cannot tell you much, if you know what I mean. I know this person came to Lubumbashi but [was put] in prison. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: oui oui/ car: ce que j'avais entendu: question de livre là/ | N: Yes. Because I had heard that it was about that book. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: pourqoi sa prison? parce-que il avait un livre de la ledigion: et ce livre fait les milacles/ | N: Why was he in prison? Because he had a religious book and that book worked miracles. |
| F: oui oui/ oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: et l'autorité n'était pas d'accord avec toute cette histoire: quoi: que: c'est la foutaise et tout ça: on plend le type en prison/ et puis: vivre ici: de cette façon là: malade... | N: And the authorities did not accept anything of this story. "This is nonsense, all that." He was put in prison. And then, living here, the way he had to, sick... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: tout ce que je... | N: [That's] all I [know}. |
| F: très bien/ | F: Very well. |
| N: connais pas grande chose... | N: I don't know much... |
| F: ah oui/ | F: Ah, well. |
| N: je me lappele encore: oh: de: des affaires de Simon là/ | N: I still remember this business about Simon. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: était: ce quelq'un qui...?... oui/ | N: Was he someone who...?... Yes. |
| 16. F: oui/ un autre nom/ |
16. F: Yes. Another name. |
| N: mm? | N: What? |
| F: ils parlent ici: aussi: de: bwana Kienda Biela/ | F: Here they also speak of bwana Kienda Biela. |
| N: Kienda Biela: c'était: un chef/ de ce: de ce coin ici qu'on appele: eh: Katanga/ | N: Kienda Biela was a chief of this region they call Katanga. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: Kienda Biela: eeeeh: c'est un ancien chef/ et il doit être aux environs de: de: de Bunkeya: entre Bunkeya et Likasi: eeeeh: Likasi: quelque part là-bas: | N: Kienda Biela. That is an ancient chief[dom]. And it must be in the neighborhood of Bunkeya, between Bunkeya and Likasi. Likasi, somewhere there. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: voilà c'est lui: Kienda Biela/ | N: That's him, Kienda Biela. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: ce mons[ieur]: ce: c'est un: cet ancien chef là: eh bien c'est lui qui faisait même la guerre avec les blancs/ | N: This gentleman, he headed an ancient chief[dom]. Well, he was the one who went to war against the whites. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: Kienda Biela/ je n'ai pas vu: mais: j'ai entendu comme ça: quand je suis: avec le temps que j'ai fait: ici: mais: le nom de Kienda Biela là existe: le premier chef/ | N: Kienda Biela. I have not seen [him], I just heard [about him] what with the time I lived here. But that name Kienda Biela exists. [It was that of] a paramount chief.13 |
| F: le premier chef/ oui oui/ oui oui/ | F: The paramount chief. Yes, yes. |
| N: c'est le premier chef/ c'est: c'est: des discussions avec les blancs: battre avec les blancs: etcetera etcetera: les premiers blancs pendant: de: de roi Léopold deux/ | N: It was the paramount chief who contested the whites, fought with the whites, and all that, the first whites during [the time of] king Leopold II. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: aaah: ce sont des histoires: ...?...roi Léopold deux/ | N: Aah, those are stories [from the time of] king Leopold II. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: c'est à ce moment là: l'époque du roi Léopold deux/ | N: That was when this happened, at the time of king Leopold II. |
| 17. F: oui/ ehmm/ en mille neuf cents vingt: vingt-huit/ eh? |
17. F: Yes, let's see. In 1928, right? |
| N: mm? | N: What? |
| F: en mille neuf cents vingt-huit/ | F: In 1928. |
| N: en mille neuf cents? | N: In 19? |
| F: vingt-huit/ | F: 28. |
| N: vingt-huit? | N: 28? |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: mm/ | N: So. |
| F: il y avait la crise/ | F: There was the crisis. |
| N: il y avait? | N: There was? |
| F: la crise/ kilisi/ | F: The crisis. [in Swahili] crisis. |
| N: de? | N: Of? |
| K: la kilisi: la crise/ | K: [in Swahili] the crisis, [back to French] the crisis. |
| F: la crise/ la crise économique/ | F: The crisis, the economic crisis. |
| N: mm/ | N: Hmm. |
| K: mwaka wa la kilisi/ | K: [in Swahili] The year of the crisis. |
| N: he? | N: What? |
| K: mwaka wa la kilisi/ la crise/ | K: The year of the crisis, [back to French] the crisis. |
| N: aah la [with emphasis] crise/ | N: Aah, [you mean] the crisis.14 |
| F: oui oui: c'est ça/ | F: Yes, that's it. |
| N: mmm/ en mille neuf cents: c'est en mille neuf cents vingt-huit: c'est ça? | N: Yes. In 1900, it was in 1928, wasn't is? |
| F: oui/ | Yes. |
| N: eh? en ?de quelle année/ | N: What was the year? |
| F: on dit/ mille neuf cents vingt-huit/ | F: They say 1928. |
| N: vingt-huit? eeh: la crise là: eh: aidez-moi un peu: eeh: eeh: qu'est-ce que c'est passé à peu plès? | N: 28? Well, that crisis -- help me a little -- what happened, roughly speaking? |
| F: oui mais: on dit: beaucoup de gens: avaient faim... | F: Yes, it is said that many people were hungry.... |
| K: oui de faim: il n'y avait pas de chakula: il n'y avait pas d'argent/ | N: Yes, there was hunger, there was no [in Swahili] food, there was no money. |
| F: ... il n'y avait pas de travail/ oui: mais de l'autre côté: ils disent: tulicheza: ma: eeh... | F: ...there was no work. Right, but on the other side, they say: [in Swahili] "We were dancing the... |
| K: mavringa/ | K: Malinga. |
| F: ... malinga: malinga/3 | F: ... malinga, malinga. |
| K: dance/ | K: [A] dance. |
| F: la dance/ vous vous rappelez? | F: The dance, you remember? |
| N: c'est la dance? | N: That's the dance? |
| F: eh: racontez un peu sur la: sur la malinga/ | F: Right, tell us a little about malinga. |
| N: mm/ | N: Hmm. |
| F: et il y avait des associations/ | F: There were associations. |
| K: de boys/ | K: Of boys. |
| N: il y avait des associations? | N: There were associations? |
| F: ya: mankundi ya... | F: [in Swahili] Of groups of... |
| K: kwa michezo? | N: [in Swahili] Among the dances? |
| F: ba michezo/ | F: [in Swahili] [Among those who did] the dances. |
| K: baMangala: baLuba: bakaTshokwe: bakaRunda: utufasilie kwanza kiloko/ | K: [giving examples and names] the Mangala, the Luba, the Tshokwe, the Lunda [in Swahili], explain this to us a little. |
| N: c'est possible/ | N: [back to French] It's possible. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: c'est possible/ | N: It's possible. |
| F: oui mais: vous n'avez pas vu? | F: Yes, but you haven't seen [those dances]? |
| K: wee haukuwa unacheza malinga baba? | K: [in Swahili] You didn't use to dance the malinga, baba? |
| N: mm? | N: What? |
| K: haukuwaka unacheza malinga? | K: You didn't use to dance the malinga? |
| N: ku... | N: To... |
| K: kucheza malinga? | K: ...dance the malinga? |
| N: kucheza nini? | N: To dance what? |
| K: malinga/ danse/ | K: Malinga, the dance. |
| N:
[laughs] on était jeune: je crois: je ne sais pas/ eeh: je ne sais
pas si j'ai: j'ai fait ça: eh: je crois/ je crois: avoir aussi joué
comme les autres/ F+K+ |
N: [laughs, back to French]. One was young then; I think, but I don't know. I don't know whether I did that. I believe [I did]. I believe I also danced15 like the others. |
| F+K+N: [laugh] | F+K+N: [laugh] |
| N: quand quel[qu'un]: quand on est jeune: eh? | N: When someone, when one is young, right? |
| F: ah oui/ | F: Ah yes. |
| N: oui? | N: Yes? |
| F: mais oui/ | F: Of course. |
| N: eh? | N: Eh? |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: j'avais: eeh: j'avais deux trois camarades: qui viennent toujours me chercher le soir: après les heures de service: alors: on promène un peu: mais: je crois qu'on avait: mais: joué/ | N: I had two, three buddies who always came in the evening, after work, to get me. So we would take a stroll. But I think we [also] danced. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: oui: c'est avec les autres/ | N: Yes, it was together with the others. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: eeeh: il y a longtemps/ | N: Well, this was long time ago. |
| F: longtemps/ mm/ | F: Long time. I see. |
| N: je crois quand-même/ malinga? [with emphasis] oui/ | N: I believe, after all -- malinga [the dance was called]? Yes, indeed. |
| F: malinga/ | F: Malinga. |
| N: c'est: c'est juste/ c'est la danse/ | N: That's right, that was the dance. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: mm/ | N: Hmm. |
| 18. F: oui oui/ ehm [to Kalundi] uko na ulizo ingine baba? |
18. F: Yes, yes. Let's see. [to Kalundi, in Swahili] Do you have another question, baba? |
| K: qui ça: moi? | K: Who, me? |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| K: ah non: c'est à vous: je ne sais pas moi/ | K: Ah no, that is up to you, I don't know [about] me. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| K: c'est à vous de poser les questions/ | K: It's for you to ask the questions. |
| F: mais: eh:... | F: But, well... |
| N: tous ces monsieurs que j'ai entendu: j'ai vu là-bas: Munongo: tout ça/ | N: All those gentlemen I heard [you mention] I have seen down there, Munongo, people like that. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: je les connais: et il m'on connait [u] aussi ces gens/ | N: I know them, and they also knew me, those people. |
| F: oui/ oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: et l'autre: le: le: le plus vieux: eh: il était commerçant chez eux làs-bas: à Kapanga: et: il n'est pas capable de: de tenir les comp[tes]: de: de tenir la comptabilité pour compte de son: de son papa/ son papa était commerçant: et puis lui voulait devenir le compt: eeeh: comptable: de: de celui de son papa/ il nétait pas capable/ | N: And the other one, the oldest [among them], he was a businessman down there where he came from, Kapanga. And he was not capable of keeping the accounts, to do the accounting for his father. His father was a businessman and he [the son] wanted to become the accountant of his father. I has not capable. |
| F: [laughs] | F: [laughs] |
| N: et il est venu: et il vient toujours chez moi ce soir [s'assoir]... | N: He always came to my house in the evening... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: ...pour me demander comment est-ce qu'il doit faire/ que je l'ai mis au courant: et: et: il était gouverneur etcetera/ Tshombe/ | N: ... to ask me how he should go about it. I told him how. And he was the governor, and what not. Tshombe. |
| F: oui/ Moise/ | F: Yes, Moïse. |
| N: eh/ | N: Eh. |
| F: Moise oui/ oui oui/ oui oui/ | F: Moïse, yes, yes. |
| N: eeeh là/ | N: That was something. |
| F: oui oui/ c'est comme ça/ bien/ | F: Yes, yes. That's how it is. Fine. |
| 19. A little tea, papa? [pours tea] |
|
| F: oui/ sukari/ | N: ...?... a little. |
| N: mais: je peux vous demander: | F: Yes, sugar. |
| F: oui/ | N: But, I'll ask you... |
| N: maison générale... | F: Yes. |
| F: oui oui/ oui oui/ | N: The general room... |
| N: s'il vous plait? | F: Yes, yes. |
| F: venez/ | N: ... please. |
| K: maison générale? | F: Come along [I'll show you]. |
| F: maison générale/ | K: The "general room?" |
| K:
[laughs] |
K: [laughs]16 |
|
[recording interrupted]
|
|
| 20. F: quand vous: pensez/ vous vous souvenez/ quel était le meilleur temps dans votre vie? |
20. F: When you think [about it] do you remember what the best time of you life was? |
| N: la meilleure? | N: The best? |
| F: le meilleur temps/ la meilleure... | F: The best time, the best.... |
| N: le meilleur temps? | N: The best time? |
| F: dans votre vie/ | F: Of your life. |
| N: mmm/ hmmm/ c'est un problème/ mmmmmm [pause]/ tout/ tout est changé bien entendu/ [pause] est-ce que je peux vous dire? quand je suis alivé ici: oui: Elisabethville: c'était: ?un province/ oh je vais: en général: [pause] les magasins existaient: la bonne nourriture: ou tout: et le travail: etcetera: [pause] les gens: [pause] beaucoup est changé/ la lévolution bien entendu: ce qu'on appele aujourd'hui: mmmm [long pause]... | N: Hmm, hmm. That's a problem. Hmmm [pause]. Everything. Everything has changes, of course. [pause] What can I tell you? When I arrived here, yes. Elisabethville was [the capital of a] province. Oh, I'll [say], generally speaking, [pause] there were the shops, good food and all, and work, you know what I mean. [pause] [As to] the people, [pause] a lot has changed. The Revolution, of course, what is called today ... Hmm [long pause]... |
| F: difficile/ | F: Difficult [to tell]. |
| N: c'est beaucoup/ | N: It's a lot. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: mon age: eh: a mangé beaucoup: a laissé beaucoup tomber/ | N: My age has effaced [lit. eaten] a lot, dropped a lot. |
| F: oui/ oui [chuckles] | F: Yes, yes. [chuckles} |
| N: c'est beaucoup/ | N: It's a lot. |
| F: oui/ oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: je: la comparaison: on peut dire: eh: entre ancien temps: et d'aujourd'hui: oooh: mais [long pause] | N: I can compare the old days with today. Oh, but [long pause]... |
| F: on peut pas faire? | F: One can't do [that]? |
| N: chaque chose: [pause] chaque moment: [pause] a son temps/ | N: Everything, [pause] every moment, [pause] has its time. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| 21. N: [pause] lévolution ou pas: évidemment: il y a la lévolution: ah: ç'a augmenté [?ça on commandait]... |
21. N: [pause] Revolution or not -- of course, the Revolution is there and has grown... |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: c'est bien/ c'est b[ien]/ et: et les commencents: n'étaient pas faciles/ | N: That's good. That's... and the beginnings, they were not easy. |
| F: oui/ | F: No. |
| N: et: si: si: la volu: la lévolution d'aujourd'hui: mettons: laissez-moi vous p: vous parler: si je me trompe: ce n'est pas parce-que [je] veux: non: je vous dis: la façon: aujourd'hui [pause]: nous avons la lévolution/ mais: il y a eu les commencements/ | N: [sense reconstructed]17 As war as today's Revolution is concerned -- I may be wrong and I don't want to say anything against it -- yes we have the Revolution, but there were the beginning. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: et nous pouvons aussi les feliciter: ces commencements là/ [with emphasis] c'est là qu'on a trouvé: la force de venir: un peu: augmenter ce qu'on avait fait/ c'est celui qui a commencé: et qui a montré: sortez de la brousse: venez dans la ville/ | N: At
we can also congratulate [people for] those beginnings. [with emphasis] It was then and there that people found the strength to grow [lit. add] beyond what had been done before. He was the one at the beginning who showed [people the way and told them]: "Get out of the bush and come to town." |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: alors: si je dis ça: je les felicite: avant tout: les premiers: et puis tout le monde/ | N: So, when I say this, I congratulate them, above all those who were the first and then everybody. |
| F: mm/ | |
| N: ah [claps]: la vérité avant tout/ | N: ah [claps]: truth before everything. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| K: vous avez saisi? | K: Did you get it? |
| 22.
N: si vous permettez: j'ai un petit...? ... quoi: montrer un peu... [long pause, rummaging in his papers] |
22. If you allow, I have a little something to show... [long pause, rummaging in his papers] |
| K: oui ça... | K: Yes, that... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| K: ...?... | K: ...?...18 |
| F: oui oui oui/ oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: je vous parlais tantôt: je vous parlais tantôt de Kisangani/ | N: Earlier I talked to you, earlier I talked to you about Kisangani. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: eeh/ [shows] voilà la pleuve/ je suis baptizé là/ | N: Well [shows] here is the proof. I was baptized there. |
| F: [reads from document] testimonialia/ ça c'est de: et ça date de Stanleyville/ | F: [reads from document] "Testimonialia" -- that dates from [the time when Kisangani was] Stanleyville. |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| F: [reads] le vingt-trois: quatre: vingt-deux / | F: [reads]
23. 4. '22. |
| N: la premièle fille: ma premiéle fille: à Elisabethville: ville/ | N: My first daughter, my first daughter, in Elisabethville. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes. Yes. |
| N: quand on appelait Elisabethville/ | N: When the town was called Elisabethville. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, Yes. |
| N: vous voulez la connaître? [shows photograph] | N: Would you like to see [lit. know] her? [shows photograph] |
| F: oui baba/ [looks] aaah/ baba... | F: Yes baba. [looks] Aah. Baba...19 |
| N: elle dévient maintenant: la: la mère supérieure des soeurs de la charité au Zaïre/ | N: Now she has become the Mother Superior of the Sisters of Charity in Zaire. |
| F: cette fille? la mère supérieure des soeurs de charité? | F: This girl? Mother Superior of the Sisters of Charity? |
| N: et: et elle existe encore/ | N: And she is still alive [and well]. |
| F: aaah oui/ | F: Aah, I see. |
| N: eh/ | N: Yes. |
| F: oui oui/ [looking at another document] mais vous avez: vous êtes marrié avec [reads] mama Madeline: Yalamba: comment: en cinquante-deux/ | F: Yes, yes. [looking at another document] But you have...Your were married to mama [reads] Madeleine Yalamba, what does it say here, in '52. |
| N: née en trente-neuf/ | N: [She was] born in '39. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: celle-là/ | N: This one here.20 |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: [shows another photograph] son frère/ | N: [shows another photograph] [This is] her brother. |
| F: son frère/ | F: Her brother. |
| N: ingénieur de société: comme: de société de l'état à Kinshasa/ | N: Engineer with a state company in Kinshasa. |
| F: aha/ | F: I see. |
| N: chef: eeeh: chef de division: de télécommunication/ | N: Section chief with the telecommunications [company]. |
| F: aha/ hmm/ | F: Aha, I see. |
| N: donc: tout ça: à Lu: à Elisabethville/ | N: So, all this in Lu[bumbashi], in Elisabethville. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: ici/ aujourd'hui Lubumbashi/ | N: Here. Called Lubumbashi today. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: he? tout ce...?... | N: You see? All this ...?... |
| F: [looking at another document, to Kalundi] il y a: il y a neuf... | F: [looking at another document, to Kalundi] He has, has nine... |
| N: ...?... | N: ...?... |
| F: neuf enfants: le dernier est né en septante-et-un/ | F: ...nine children. The last one was born in '71. |
| K: et il a neuf enfants? | K: And he had nine children? |
| F: oui oui/ neuf enfants: le dernier né en septante-et-un/ il est marrié en cinquante-deux: | F: Yes, yes. Nine children, the last one born in '71. He was married in '52. |
| N: il est venu en congé: en [pause]: elle est venu en congé: [shows photograph] voilà/ | N: He, or rather she, came home on vacation. [shows photograph] Here. |
| F: oui oui/ et cinquante-deux: c'est la ...?... | F: Yes, yes, and '52, that is ...?.... |
| N: j'ai pris les photo avec moi ... | N: I took the photographs along... |
| F: ah oui/ | F: Ah yes. |
| N: ... avec ça/ | N: ... with this. |
| F: ah voilà/ ah voilà/ trèz bien/ | F: Ah, I see, very well. |
| N: donc: avec tout ce temps là... | N: So, with all that time ... |
| F: des belles photo/ | F: Nice pictures. |
| N: ...toujours/ | N: ...always.... |
| F: on va faire: on va prendre aussi une photo/ ...?... | F: We'll also take a photo...?... |
| N:
... toujours: à Elisabethville/ K:...?.../ |
N: ....always in Elisabethville. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| K: ...?.... | K: ...?... |
| N: aujourd'hui si je me ne trompe: toujours: à Lubumbashi: etcetera etcetera... | N: Today, in Lubumbashi, if I'm not mistaken [life goes on] if you know what I mean. |
| K: ...?... | K: ...?... |
| N: alors: eeeh: j'ai beaucoup: [pause] diminué/ ça c'est toujours moins: [shows another photograph] en visite/ | N: So, well, I am much [pause] diminished, it is getting less all the time. [shows another photograph] Visiting. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: j'étais en visite/ je suis allé visiter ma fille: mmm: au couvent de la Gécamines/ | N: I was visiting. I went to visit my daughter in the convent, in the township of Gecamines. |
| F: ah voilà/ | F: Ah, there you are. |
| N: alors ça c'est le chauffeur qui ma conduit là/ | N: And that is the driver who drove me there. |
| F: oui oui oui/ oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: ça c'est un ami du chauffeur/ | N: And that is a friends of the driver's. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: et puis: tous ces jours: tous ces lévolutions la: toujours à Lubumbashi/ | N: So then, all these days, all the revolutions [that happened] [I was] always in Lubumbashi. |
| F: Lubumbashi/ | F: Lubumbashi. |
| N: c'est moi/ | N: It was me who was there. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: [another photograph] ça c'est le jour que ma fille a fait vingt-cinq ans: de service de religieuse: alors: toute la famille... | N: [another photograph] This was on the day when my daughter celebrated her 25th anniversary of service as a nun. Then, the whole family... |
| F: oui voilà/ | F: Yes, I see. |
| N: est la-bà/ | N: ...was there. |
| F: oui oui/ oui oui/ je vois/ | F: Yes, yes, I see. |
| N:
pour la ne [recording breaks off, end of tape] [recording resumes] |
N: For the... [end of tape, then recording resumes] |
| F: eh bien/ bon: il faut pas oublier eh? | F: Fine. Alright, we must not forget [to take a photo], right? |
| N: oui oui/ tout ça: tout-ce que vous voyez... | N: Yes, yes. All this, all that you see... |
| K: ?mettons ceci/ | K: Let's put this one [aside] |
| N: ... à Lubumbashi/ | N: ... [it happened] in Lubumbashi. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: tout/ | N: Everything. |
| F: ça aussi: | F: That one also.21 |
| N: tous ces documents/ | N: All these documents. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: Lubumbashi/ | N: Lubumbashi. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: alors: cela montre que: y a: quelque chose... | N: So this shows that there was something... |
| F: j'ai... | F: I have.... |
| N: ... ça montre bien que: j'ai fait longtemps ici/ | N: ... it shows that I have lived here for a long time. |
| 23. F: oui oui/ j'ai encore une question/ vous avez connu Monsieur Verbeken? |
23. F: Yes, yes. I have one more question. Did you know Mr. Verbeken? |
| N: Monsieur? | N: Mister? |
| F: Verbeken/ Auguste Verbeken/ | F: Verbeken, Auguste Verbeken. |
| N: oui: il: il travaille comme? | N: Yes, he worked as what? |
| F: il était... | F: He was .... |
| K: commissaire de district/ | K: District Commissioner. |
| F: commissaire de district/ Verbeken/ il a écrit un livre: un livre: du Swahili/ [pointing] celui-là/ | F: District Commissioner. Verbeken. He wrote a book, a book about Swahili, [pointing] that one there. |
| N: commissaire de district? | N: District Commissioner? |
| F: oui/ et: voilà la question/ en trente-quatre: mille neuf cents trente-quatre... | F: Yes. Now to the question. In '34, in 1934... |
| N: en trente-quatre/ oui/ | N: In '34, yes. |
| F: il y avait un journal pour indigènes/ qu'on a nommé Ngonga/ | F: ... there existed a newspaper for natives, it was called Ngonga. |
| N: eh? | N: What? |
| F: Ngonga/ | F: Ngonga. |
| N: Nonga/ oui oui/ | N: Ngonga, yes, yes. |
| F: vous vous rappelez/ | F: You remember. |
| N: mm/ | N: Hmm. |
| F: alors racontez/ vous vous rappelez de: de cette époque? un journal pour indigènes/ | F: So, tell [us]. You remember that time, a newspaper for natives? |
| K: on a pas ça au CEPSI? | K: Don't they have it at CEPSI? |
| N: je me rappele que... | N: I remember that... |
| F: si/ non/ vous [vous] rappelez plus? | F: You do. Or don't you? You no longer remember? |
| N: Ngonga: oui/ mais je rappele plus ce qui c'est passé: il y a beaucoup... | N: Ngonga, yes. But I don't remember any more what happened [with it]. There is so much... |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: il y a beaucoup dans la tête: je me rap: je me rap[elle] plus/ je me rappele plus: c'est: qu'on parle de: ah non/ | N: There is so much in my head, I don't remember any more. I don't remember any more what is being talked about, no. |
| F: non? | F: No? |
| N: ça ne tient pas/ | N: It does not keep [in my head]. |
| F: non/ il ...?... il y avait de: de: il y avait des journaux: pour indigènes/ à l'époque? est-ce que... | F: No. There existed newspaper for natives at that time. Were they...? |
| N: oui/ mais/ pas les journaux comme aujourd'hui: eh? | N: Yes, but not newspapers like today, right? |
| F: non/ | F: No. |
| N: sont des: comme je vous dis: c'est le commencement: il y avait les journaux: soi-disant: je n...?... | N: They were -- as I told you, it was the beginning, there were newspapers, so-called. I [quite understand.... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: ...?... voulez/ il y en avait [with emphasis] bien/ | N: ... what you] want [to know]. Yes, there were ... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: des gens qui vv: qui veulent de: faire quelque chose/ | N: ...people who wanted to do something. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: mais: en comparaison avec ce qu'ont fait maintenant: ça ne tient pas eh? | N: But compared to what is being done today, it wasn't much, right? |
| F: non/ non/ non non/ oui oui/ | F: No. |
| N: c'est comme il y avait: dans le temps un petit enfant qui joue avec: eeh: quelque chose de rien de tout: qui est dévenu aujourd'hui le vélo/ | N: It was like this small child who used to play with some little thing, that did not amount to anything, but then it became today's bicycle. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: [laughs] | N: [laughs] |
| F: c'est ça/ | F: That's it. |
| N: c'est pas la même chose: parce que... | N: It's not the same thing because... |
| K: bon/ je....?.... | F: Fine, I...?... |
| N: ... je vous dis: avec le temps: avec le temps: les choses sont un peu diminuées/ | N: ... I tell you, with the time [passing], with the time [passing] the things [I remember] have become fewer. |
| 24. F: [at the same time to Kalundi; sentence overlapping] non: pas maintenant/ non/ vous faites ça après/ oui/ pas maintenant/ oui/ [turning back to baba Ngoie but then addressing Kalundi] oui oui/ dis: eeeh: baba Kalundi... |
24. F: [at the same time to Kalundi; sentence overlapping] No, not now. No, you do this afterwards. Yes, not now. Yes [turning back to baba Ngoie but then addressing Kalundi] Yes, yes. Say, wait, baba Kalundi... |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| F: ...vous avez encore des ulizo? | F: ... do still have [in Swahili] questions? |
| N: je vais vous écouter: attendez un peu... [he changes position of his body] aaah/ | N: I'll listen to you. Wait a moment... [he changes position of his body] aaah. |
| F: unachoka? | F: [in Swahili] Are you tired? |
| N: mais: mais de: c'est beaucoup travailler pour mes oreilles/ il y a des moments que vous entendez bien: d'autre moments: aaah: on a nettoyé: on a donné les médicaments: mais... | N: But. But this is a lot of work for my ears. There are moments when one hears well, and then there are others, aaah. [My ears] were cleaned, medicines were given, but... |
| K: [taking over the questioning] baba Léon/ | K: [taking over the questioning] Baba Léon. |
| N: mais ça doit: ça termine tout doucement: et attention: mon age/ | N: ...but it must, slowly this brings everything to an end. And don't forget, my age. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes Yes. |
| K: baba Léon/ | K: Baba Léon. |
| N: ...?... aussi beaucoup ...?... | N: ...?... also a lot....?... |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| K: baba Léon/ | K: Baba Léon. |
| N: mon age est aussi beaucoup ...?... | N: My age is also a lot...?... |
| K: baba Léon/ baba Léon/ unamufahamu: Yav: André? | K: Baba Léon. Baba Léon, [in Swahili from now on] do you know Yav André? |
| N: eh? | N: Who? |
| K: Yav André/ | K: Yav André. |
| N: mm/ | N: Hmm. |
| K: unamufahumu? umuyue? | K: Are you acquainted with him? Do you know him? |
| N: oui: eeh? | N: Yes, who? |
| K: Yava André/ | K: Yava André.22 |
| N: Yava? | N: Yava? |
| K: eh/ Yav André/ | K: Right, Yav André. |
| N: eh: minamuyua... | N: Eh, I know him... |
| K: iko wapi? | K: Where does he live? |
| N: Yava? | N: Yava? |
| K: Yav: André/ alikuwaka boy zamani/ | K: Yav Andre/ He was a houseboy long ago. |
| N: hata André Yav: hapana Kalunda? | N: So, André Yav, is this not Lunda? |
| K: ni Kalunda: eeyo/ | K: He is Lunda, there you are.23 |
| N: [long pause] ah je ...?... beaucoup des Kalunda: eh: beaucoup mais: qui portent le même nom: beaucoup/ | N: [long pause] Ah, I ...?... Many Lunda, have the same name, many. |
| K: oui banakuwa mingi baba/ | K: Yes, there are many, baba. |
| F: ba: baYav balikuwa bamingi/ | F: Many of them are called Yav. |
| K: banakuwa mingi/ | K: There are many. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: ...ou: eeeh... | N: ...or, wait... |
| F: peut-être il faut demander... | F: [back to French] Maybe one should ask... |
| N: ...plus jeune: plus jeune qu'on appelait... | N: [There was] a younger person who was called... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N:
...Yava/ |
N: ...Yava. |
| K + F: ...?... | K+F: ...?... |
| F: non/ demandez comment [ils] voyent ce document/ est-ce qu'il a vu ça déjà? ou est-ce que ce: ce.... | F: No [this is not getting us anywhere], ask how they regard this document [the Vocabulaire]. Has he ever seen something like it? Or ... |
| K: baba Léon/ baba Léon/ | K: Baba Léon. Baba Léon. |
| N: ....?.... j'ai les noms: mais je ne sais plus exactement vous expliquer quoi/ | N: ...?... I have the names but I can no longer give you any exact information. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| 25. K: baba Léon/ [points] ii: document ii: ulisoma: uliisha kuiona fasi ingine? |
25. K: Baba Léon [points to the Vocabulaire] [in Swahili]: This document here, the one you read, have you seen it somewhere else/ |
| N: mm/ | N: Mm. |
| K: ii: papier nilikuachia kwako/ | K: This paper I left with you at your home. |
| N: nilisoma/ nilisoma/ mii ku wakati yote niko hapa/ | N: I read it, I read it. I was there at all times. |
| K: ndiyo/ uliisha kuona ii papier fasi ingine? | K: Yes. [But] have you seen this paper in some other place? |
| N: eh? | F: What? |
| K: ii papier ya namuna ii/ | K: A paper of this kind. |
| N: he/ | N: Well. |
| K: uliisha kuona fasi ingine? ao ya mara kwanza ...?... | K: Have you seen [it] in some other place or is this the first time? |
| N: ilipatia namuna ile kui... | N: [Your are asking] whether I had an occasion to see... |
| K: ... kuiona fasi ingine/ | K: ...see it in some other place. |
| N: hapana/ | N: No. |
| K: ni paka ii ...?... | K: It's just this...?... |
| N: mi bado kuona/ | N: I never saw it before. |
| K: we bado kuona? | K: You never saw it before? |
| N: bado kuona/ | N: Never saw it before. |
| K: paka ...?... njo uliona? | K: Only now you have seen it? |
| N: bado kuona/ | N: Never before. |
| K: bado kuona/ | K: Never before. |
| N: shiyaona4 fasi ingine/ | N: I haven't seen it elsewhere. |
| F: lakini ile... | F: But this... |
| N: siyaone ile papier fasi ingine/ | N: I haven't seen this paper elsewhere. |
| F: ...ilitoka ... | F: ... was published. |
| N: njo mara ya kwanza/ | N: It's the first time. |
| F: oui/ oui oui/ oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: njo mara ya kwanza ya kukumbuka kama ... | N: This is the first time to remember that... |
| K: kukumbuka wa boy ya association/ | K: Remembering among the houseboy who had formed an association. |
| N: banakumbuka: kazi ilipita: kazi/ | N: What they remembered was that there was too much work. |
| K: ndiyo ndiyo/ wee njo mara ya kwanza kuona/ | K: Yes, yes. [But] you saw it for the first time. |
| N: alafu ile kazi ilipitaka njo ii: naféliciter: tena mweyee: ii: alitumika hii kazi/ kwa sababu wantu wengi: awakamate: mambo ya kuonyesha mufano ya inchi yabo/ mm? mufano iko pale: iko paka: | N: However, though the work may have been too much, I congratulate you [and] the one who did this work. Because many people don't make it their business to show the example of their country. Right? The example is there, it is only.... |
| F: kucheza/ | F: [They only think of] amusing themselves [lit. dancing]. |
| N: et c'est tout/ c'est tout un peu/ ils montrent pas ce qu'ils connaissent: ce que les autres: vont les suivre/ non/ telle ...?.../ | N: [back to French] That is all, that is just about all. They don't show what they know so that the others could follow them. No. This...?... |
| K: kama hivi/ | K: [in Swahili] That's how it is. |
| N: c'est tout/ | N: That's all. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| K: [to F] bwana/ | K: [to F] Bwana. |
| F: ...?... | F: ...?... |
| N: moi je félicite ceux qui font le travail: comme [les boys]/ ce n'est pas facile vous savez/ | N: I congratulate those who did the work like [the house boys], it wasn't easy, you know. |
| K: c'est pas facile/ | K: It wasn't easy... |
| N: ce n'est pas facile/ faut tenir compte: pour faire les hommes/ [to Kalundi] peut-être vous me comprenez? | N: It wasn't easy, one has to realize, to make men. [to Kalundi] Perhaps you understand me? |
| K: oui oui oui/ | K: Yes, yes. |
| N: ah bon/ | N: Fine then. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: faire les hommes/ | N: To make men. |
| F: oui/ ni kusema faire les hommes? | F: Yes. What does it mean "to make men?" |
| K: oui faire les hommes: former des gens .... | K: Yes, to make men, to educate people... |
| F: oui oui/ oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: sasa/ sasa.... | N: [in Swahili] Nowadays. Nowadays... |
| K: ... ? ... anciennes histoires/ | K: ...?... [those are] ancient stories. |
| F:
oui oui/ |
F: Yes, yes. |
| K+N: ...?... | F+K: ...?... |
| N: ...?... etcetera: c'est faire les hommes/ | N: ...?... and all that, that's making men. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: aujourd'hui: nous avons beaucoup les hommes: mmm: [pause] et: grade zéro/ pour moi... | N: Nowadays we have many men, well [pause] and [they are] worthless. For me... |
| F: grade zéro? | F: Worthless? |
| N: zéro/ je félicite [pause] mon civilisateur: eh les: surtout les premières/ | N: [Worth] nothing. I congratulate [pause] the one[s] who civilized me, above the first ones. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| K: [to F] civilisateurs ce sont des blancs/ | K: [to F] The "civilizers" -- that was the whites. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: qui m'a montré: et qui m'a dit: c'etait: ne pas accepter/ [pause] subire: ne pas vouloil/ | N: [The civilizer] who showed me, told me [never simply to] accept; suffering [for something], not just wish [for it]. |
| K: bon: qu'est-ce que vous avez encore là? | K: Alright, what do still have there? |
| F: ...?... | F: ...?... |
| 26. K: bon: vous avez dit de signer ça? |
26. K: You said this should be signed. |
| F: oui oui: mais: on peut faire/ autre/ si il signe ça/ | F: Yes, but this can be done in another manner. If he signs this... |
| K: c'est quoi ça? | K: What is this? |
| F: c'est vous [qui] signez ça/ ni ile mambo ya: ya: yangu ya... [pause] | F: You sign this. [in Swahili] This is something that concerns me...[pause]24 |
| 27. N: savoir n'est pas facile/ |
27. N: Knowing is not easy. |
| F: mm/ [pause] | F: Hmm [pause] |
| N: il faut avoir le gout de savoir quelque chose/ alors vous arrivez à quelque chose/ | N: One must have the taste for knowing something. Then you get to something. |
| K: oui oui/ | K: Yes, yes. |
| F: mm/ bon: [pause] on va finir ici/ | F: Hmm, [pause] we'll finish here. |
| K: oui? oui oui/ | K: Yes? Alright. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: il y en a beaucoup des choses que.... | N: There are many things.. |
| K: mais pourquoi ... ? ... ça? | K: But why? ...?... |
| N: ... mais ne sais pas: il y a beaucoup [de] choses en tête: que [with emphasis] les Belges: messieurs les civilisateurs qui ont travaillé avec moi: quand j'étais jeune: | N: but, I don't know, there are many things in my head. [with emphasis] [Regarding] the Belgians, the gentlemen who were the civilisers, who worked with me when I was young. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: qui m'ont formé/ | N: [Those] who formed me. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: savoir vivre: etcetera etcetera: ils m'ont donné les petites brochures: lire ceci: lire ça: toujours: vous serez toujours compté parmi les autres/ | N: [Who taught me] savoir vivre, if you know what I mean. They gave me little brochures [and told me] to read this and that. ["If you do that," they said] "you will always be counted as someone [of importance] among the others. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: eh bien/ pour dire: vous dire la verité: je dois remercier/ beaucoup/ | N: Well, to tell you the truth, I owe [them] thanks. A lot. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: ils m'ont formé... | N: They made of me... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: ... un homme/ | N: ... a man. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: malgré beaucoup: choses: qui sont diminuées dans ma tête à cause de mon age/ ils m'ont acheté: première partie du monde/ un livre/ | N: [I remember this] despite the fact that many things have gotten diminished in my head because of my age. The bought me a book "First Part of the World." |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: deuxième partie du monde: un livre/ avec ça: j'étais un homme: de tout mon temps/ | N: "Second Part of the World." With that I was a man, throughout my life-time. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: mais aujourd'hui: je suis à l'age... | N: But today, I am at an age... |
| F: [chuckles] | F: [chuckles] |
| N: ... qui doit être aussi: respecté/ | N: ... that also must be respected. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: et je: je peux aussi: eeeh: féliciter: ma conduite: à une: dans les vies pareilles/ c'est pas facile/ | N: And I can also congratulate myself, the way I behaved under the living conditions as they were. It wasn't easy. |
| F: non/ | F: No. |
| N: des sept enfants à Lubumbashi/ | N: With seven children in Lubumbashi. |
| F: sept? oui: sept enfants/ | F: Seven? Yes, seven children. |
| N: ce que je vous dis: ça vient de ma tête/ | N: What I am telling you comes from my head. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: c'est ma vie: toujours ici/ ça: [pointing to Kalundi] c'est un gamin/ | N: It was my life, always here [in Lubumbashi]. This one [pointing to Kalundi], he is just a youngster. |
| F: celui là? | F: This one? |
| K: oui/ | K: Yes. |
| F: papa Kalundi? | F: Papa Kalundi? |
| K: je suis gamin/ | K: I am a youngster. |
| F: un ga: un gamin/ | F: A youngster. |
| N: mais... | N: But... |
| K: ...?... | K: ...?... |
| N: un de... | N: One of... |
| F: oui/ oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: c'est ça qu'il y a la différence: avec les autres enfants/ | N: That was what made the difference [compared to] the other children. |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: mm/ | N: Hmm. |
| 28. F: bon: merci... |
28. F: Fine. Thank you... |
| N: pas de quoi/ | N: Don't mention it. |
| F: un grand merci: vous avez: vous avez: aidé: donc: [pointing to the Vocabulaire] c'est vraiment un document très important: et: baba Kalundi... | F: Thank you a lot, you have helped [us]. So [pointing to the Vocabulaire] this is really a very important document and [turning to Kalundi] baba Kalundi... |
| N: et ça va: ça va sortir comme un livre? ou? | N: And this will come out as a book? Or? |
| F: non/ un livre: c'est-à-dire: vous m'aidez: eh? nous faisons: nous faisons: une traduction: en Anglais/ et en Français/ ah? et ça va sortir comme un livre: | F: No, a book, that is to say, you are helping me, right? We are doing a translation into English and French. You understand? And that will come out as a book. |
| N: c'est beaucoup mieux/ | N: That's much better. |
| F: oui/ et: il y a beaucoup des gens qui nous ont aidé: papa Kalundi: et on va: va mettre votre nom: eh? et de: citoyen Ngoie... | F: Yes. Many people helped us. Papa Kalundi, we will mention your name, right? And that of Citizen Ngoie... |
| N: mm/ | N: Hmm. |
| F: ...Nday/ eh? | F: ...Nday. Right? |
| N: avec les: les noms là: là... ?... la composition des noms: parce-que pour le moment c'est toujours Léon Ngoie... | N: With those names, ...?... the way they are put together -- it actually it is still Léon Ngoie... |
| F: oui oui/ oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: Léon Ngoie/ dire que maintenant il faut prendre aussi les noms de papa: de papa Ngoie: Ndayi...?... tout ça/ | N: Léon Ngoie. Now we are told that me must also take the father's name -- Ngoie's father, Ndayi...?... all that. |
| F: mais écoutez: vous avez vu: vous avez vu... | F: But listen, did you see, did you see.... |
| N: oui... | N: Yes. |
| F: ...que votre nom est dedans [le Vocabulaire]? | F: ... that your name is in the Vocabulaire? |
| N: oui/ | N: Yes. |
| F: vous avez vu? | F: Did you see it? |
| N: oui/ j'ai vu mais: le nom l'était toujours comme ça/ | N: Yes, I saw it, but my name has always been the same. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: je suis connu... | N: I am known... |
| F: parce-que: est-ce que: est-ce que... | F: Because... |
| N: Léon Ngoi/ | N: ... as Léon Ngoi. |
| F: oui/ oui: est-ce que... | F: Yes. Is there.... |
| N: tandis-que maintenant il y en a trop là [de]dans/ | N: Whereas today too much is put [into names]. |
| K: [laughs] oui/ | K: [laughs] Yes. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| K: l'authenticité/ | K: "Authenticity." |
| N: Nday: na Banda: tout ça... | N: Nday, and Banda, all that... |
| F: oui oui/ [looking in the Vocabulaire] ici: c'est sur page: c'est page gani? | F: Yes, yes. [looking in the Vocabulaire] Here, it's on page -- what is the page? |
| K: page dix-sept/ | K: Page 17. |
| F: dix-sept? | F: 17? |
| K: oui/ | K: Yes. |
| F: six [seize] déjà/ | F: 16 already. |
| K: oui: p[age] dix-sept/ | K: Yes, page 17. |
| F: dix-sept? | F: 17? |
| K: dix-sept/ [he finds it] quinze: oui p[age] quinze: qu'est que ce ... | K: 17. [he finds Nogoie's name] 15, yes page 15, what... |
| F: ah oui/ | F: Ah, yes. |
| N: ...on avait encore... | K: ...was it again. |
| F:
non: quinze: non: non/ non non/ non non: c'était: c'était
ici: dix-sept our quelque chose comme ça/ [reads] bwana: Tshimanga Paul: etcetera/ ce sont des: des clercs/ [finds the name] voilà: |
F: No, 15, no, not at all. Here it was, 17 or something like that. [reads from Vocabulaire] "bwana Tshimanga Paul," and so on; those are the clerks. [find the name] Here it is. |
| K: quelle page? | K: What page? |
| F: sept/ ici: ici on parle... | F: Seven. Here they mention... |
| N: eh? | N: Who? |
| F: [reads] bwana: Ngoie Léon/ | F: [reads] "bwana Ngoie Léon." |
| N: oui oui/ oui/ | N: Yes, yes. |
| F: eh? | F: You see? |
| N: oui oui/ c'est bien moi/ | N: Yes, that's me alright. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| 29. N: voilà/ avec ce moment ici: ce moment ici: mais votle lévolution là: là: mmm: de la lévolution: mmm: parce que il faut tout completer/ autrement on dit: on connais pas: eh: etcetera: mmm: aaah....[he looks at a paper] |
29. N: You see. With this moment here, this moment here, and then your revolution there, I don't know about that revolution. Because everything must be completed. In other words, one doesn't know, if you know what I mean.25 Wait a moment [he looks at a paper] |
| F: ce sont des adresses/ | F: Those are addresses. |
| N:
attendez: je dois vous trouver quelque chose: qui vous: de la voir/ [pause] [recording briefly stopped] en soixante: ça: mmm: aah: en cinquante-neuf/ en cinquante- neuf/ j'avais une tête: parce que j'ai toujours été amis des missionnel: et ami des an: de: de: de s: de seminaristes/ |
N: Wait,
I have to find something for you to see. [pause] [recording briefly stopped]. In '60, wait, in '59. I was up-to-date because I always used to be friends with missionaries and seminarians. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: eeh/ | N: Eeh. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: toujours ami/ | N: Always friends. |
| F: mm/ | F: I see. |
| N: mais ils m'ont franqué beaucoup de choses en tête/ | N: But -- they always put things into my head. |
| F: dans la tête oui/ | F: In your head, yes. |
| N: alors: avec ça: j'étais toujours bien content... | N: So, with that I was always quite content... |
| F: oui/ | F: Yes. |
| N: ... et vivre... | N: ...to live... |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: ... comme un homme: | N: ... like a man. |
| F: oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| N: vivre comme tout le monde/ | N: Live like everybody. |
| F: oui oui/ oui oui/ très bien/ | F: Yes, yes. Alright. |
| N: sans exagérer etcetera/ aah/ tandis-que aujourd'hui: vous avez un peu: des nouvelles... | N: Without exaggerating, and all that. Aah. Whereas today, of the news... |
| K: Baba Léon/ | K: Baba Léon. |
| N: un tout petit ?peu de nouvelles que je connais: et puis beaucoup: des ...?... etcetera/ mais: eh: [claps] | N: ... I only know very little of the news. And then many ...?... if you know what I mean. But -- eh [claps]. |
| F:
oui/ [recording interrupted] |
F: Yes. [recording interrupted] |
| 30. N: [to Kalundi] ...analala na mwanamuke a...?... |
30. N: ...[in Swahili] he sleeps with a woman ...?.... |
| K: hapana/ | K: [in Swahili] No [meaning: don't say that]. |
| N: [to F] alors: vous me donnez pas la main: parce que vous n'êtes pas content? | N: So, you don't shake hands with me because you are not satisfied? |
| F+K: [laugh] | F+K: [laugh] |
| N: ah bon: c'est pas facile/ | N: Alright then. It's not easy. |
| F: oui oui oui/ | F: Yes, yes. |
| 1
Notice the gap of almost forty years (in fact almost
the entire history of Elisabethville prior to independence, minus a dozen
years or so); foregrounded by the matter-of-fact progress of the narrative
("donc"). Here an instance of "forgetting" that
makes this particular narrative possible: to join what counts for him: his
beginnings and the recognition he received... Is this one explanation for
colonial nostalgia: remembering recognition, forgetting the many forms of
its denial? But then (see the following) the gap gets filled when the tokens of recognition become -- as objects -- "reminders." 2 Interesting instance of how he not just registers but interprets my questions. 3 Kalundi says mavringa and I correct him. Does he merge malinga with muv[i]ringo, "in a circle?" A derivation of malinga from ECS -ringa, "put on airs, walk with a swagger" seem more likely but should result in malingo rather than malinga. 4 Notice that Baba Ngoie uses the pidginized phrase mi bado kuona, a "correct" form, siyaone, and a Bemba-ized form shiyaona, all within the same short passage. |
1
Baba Ngoi ignores -- or simply does not hear -- my interjection and continues
his narrative. This occurs throughout the conversation. 2 On the passport office as a colonial lieu de mémoire see Kalundi's comments on the Vocabulaire. 3 I had not understood the name of the service for which he was hired. Baba Ngoi does not react to my question; while he goes on, Kalundi tries to help but is not comprehensible on the recording. 4 Here and again below the French text has a que preceding the statement. This is probably a calque on Swahili asema (whereby asema is the lexical equivalent of a colon). 5 Here I make an attempt to pose another question. It is ignored (or not heard) despite the additional emphasis created by my using the polite term of address in Swahili, baba. 6 Probably related to the livret regarding which I try to ask a question that does not get off the ground until later. 7 The original has à, but that must be a mistake (perhaps explainable by the fact that in Swahili ku covers both à and de, "at" and 'from". 8 My correction of "1910" must have been based on an entry in his work papers. He accepts it but there remains some confusion, which I ask for his age at the time. In his response he seems to ignore my question, unless he heard quel âge as village. 9 This is probably the best translation of etcetera, a formula Baba Ngoie used several time during the conversation. 10 My question was ambiguous; it could also mean: "When did you start work at the bank?" That is what Baba Ngoie responds to. 11 This is the first time Baba Ngoie switches to Swahili (but just repeating my question in Swahili). 12 I was going to say something about the long imprisonment of Simon Kimbangu in Elisabethville (check, from 1921 to 1951). Baba Ngoie may have heard "il y a longtemps" which brought him back to his beginning in Kikondja. 13 I take it that the attributes Baba Ngoie gives to this chief -- lit. "ancient" or "first" -- refer to the office rather than the person. 14 Now he understands but it comes out -- he pronounces the term carefully, in two syllables, and with emphasis -- as if his problem had been the confusion we created by trying to be helpful with giving the Swahili term. 15 Baba Ngoie uses the verb jouer, "to play"; Sh/KS -cheza means both, "to play" and "to dance". 16 Maison générale, lit. "the general house", a euphemism for toilet I had never heard, nor had Kalundi. "House" should be "room" in this context (in Sh/Ks nyumba can mean both). 17 In this passage Baba Ngoie gets hopelessly entangled in attempt to express certain reservations regarding Mobutu's "Revolution." 18 Neither Ngoie nor Kalundi are comprehensible. The context suggests that Ngoie looks for/takes out his wallet and picks up a document he wants to show me. 19 I began to interject the term of address here (baba) in order to gain time. My attention was divided between looking a the photograph an monitoring the cassette tape that is about to come to the end of this side. 20 Reference not clear. Could be to a photograph of his wife, or to that of his oldest daughter but probably the latter in view of the following. 21 While the conversation continues Kalundi and I seem to select some of the photos/document Baba Ngoie brought with him. 22 Kalundi, in an effort to get through to Baba Ngoie, employs two doublets: he gives the "low" synonym -yua for -fahamu, and Luba-izes Yav to Yava. 23 The expression eeyo (affirmation) is another bow to Baba Ngoie's Luba-Katanga identity. 24 A cryptic exchange. As best as I can recall now I was busy with a piece of paper to be signed, probably as a receipt (against my research funds) for a recompensation. Trying to keep to my principle never to pay for information directly, I plan to have Kalundi sign the paper. 25 Another passage that can only be paraphrased rather than translated. Baba Ngoie just kept on talking while he was looking for a paper to show me. |
