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ISSN: 1570-0178

Volume 12, Issue 3 (6 October 2009)



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Conversations about Katanga Genre Painting in the 1970s

transcribed , translated, and annotated by

Johannes Fabian

University of Amsterdam


address:
Amsterdam School for Social Science Research
University of Amsterdam
Kloveniersburgwal 48
1012 CX Amsterdam
The Netherlands


 

Introduction

Text One

Text Two

Text Three

Text Four

Text Five

Text Six

Text Seven

Text Eight

Text Nine

 

 

Text Two

A conversation with Kabinda Kunkulu and Kasongo, recorded May 17,1973 at J. Fabian’s home in Kolwezi.

 


 

Swahili text and English translation

1. F: ...ndani ya machine: ao nini: ao nini:
K: ndiyo/
F: paka sawa vile tunasumbulia/
K: sawa tunasumbuliaka shiku yote/
Kas: ...?...
F: ongoye kiloko: nitafanya: eh: inafaa ki: nichanger/ [recording interrupted to adjust speed] bon/ ni kusema sasa tunaangarie hii: tableaux: Kasongo alifanya: tu: tu ya Mamba Muntu/
K: mm/
F: na sawa vile mi niliuliza: maana yake ni nini? ...?... sasa wee unasema nini?
Kas: eh: ni kusema: yee iko: sawa: mujimu/
F: mujimu/
Kas: mu mayi/
F: mujimu: mais: uli: nilisikia neno ingine uli: ulisema/
Kas: ah/
F: ki: ta: utapimo? uliisha kusema neno ingine/
Kas: ...kusema: ah: neno ingine?
F: oui/ mu: ma: mara ingine ni mu tshiLuba ao?
Kas: ah minasema: mpumina/
F: mpumina?
Kas: aah/
F: mpumina njo nini?
Kas: iko: iko mujimu/
F: mujimu?
Kas: ah ule: eko mu mayi/
F: mu mayi?
Kas: eh/
F: ni mu lugha gani?
Kas: mpumina iko: wala mu kiSwahili: tunasema sawa/
F: mpumina/
Kas: mpumina/
K: mpumina eeh/
Kas: yee iko sawa mutu/
F: mm/
Kas: lakini yee iko iko na nguvu/ ao anakuonana: na mifano ingine/ iko na nguvu mingi/
F: ah bon/
Kas: iko tu sawa: sawa...
F: inakawa mu ...?... anakawa mu: mu:
Kas: ana: anabakia paka mu mayi/
F: hapa karibu Kolwezi: beko naye?
Kas: hapa karibu: hawezi ku: kupatikana hapana/
F: mm/
Kas: yee anapendeza tu paka:
K: ...mutoni munene/
Kas: [overlapping] fasi ya mutoni munene sana/
F: sawa Lualaba/
Kas: sawa Lualaba: Tanganyika:
K: kule ...?...
Kas: kule:
K: eeh/
Kas: fasi: mayi mingi/
F: eyo/ eh/
Kas: oui/
1. F: ...(don’t talk) into the machine, (just don’t think of it).
K: Yes.
F: Just like we have a conversation.
K: Like we always chat.
Kas: ...?...
F: Wait a moment, I’m going – I need to change (something). [recording interrupted to adjust speed]. Alright. Now let’s look at this picture of Mamba Muntu that Kasongo painted.
K: Mm.
F: As I asked before, what does it represent? What do you say?
Kas: Well, she is something like a spirit.
F: A spirit.
Kas: In the water.
F: A spirit. But I heard you using another word.
Kas: Ah.
F: (Something like) utapimo? You used another word.
Kas: Ah, another word?
F: Yes. Perhaps it was in tshiLuba?
Kas: Ah, what I said was mpumina.
F: Mpumina?
Kas: Yes.
F: Mpumina, what is this?
Kas: It is a spirit.
F: A spirit?
Kas: Yes, the one (that lives) in the water.
F: In the water?
Kas: Yes.
F: In what language is it?
Kas: Mpumina – it’s how we say it also in Swahili.
F: Mpumina.
Kas: Mpumina.
K: Mpumina, yes.[1]
Kas: It is like a human being.
F: Mm.
Kas: But it is powerful. And one may see it in different forms. It is very powerful.
F: Ah, alright.
Kas: It is like...
F: Does it stay in...
Kas: It lives only in the water.
F: Can it be found nearby, here in Kolwezi?
Kas: No, you won’t come across it nearby.
F: Mm.
Kas: It only likes...
K: ...big rivers.
Kas: [overlapping] places with very big rivers.
F: Like the Lualaba.
Kas: Like the Lualaba (or Lake) Tanganyika.
K: Over there in...?..
Kas: Over there.
K: Yes.
Kas: Places with a lot of water.
F: I see, yes.
Kas: Yes.
2. F: bon/ donc: ni sawa hii muzimu/ ts/ bon: alafu: inaonekana namna gani? ni hii: hi maan: hii arisi yake njo nini?
Kas: yee: kama: eh: kama: unakuwa na baati muzuri/
F: mm/
Kas: unaona yee:
F: mm/
Kas: ku mutoni munene/ atakuachia kintu yake moya wala: ile saa anaweka pa mukono: wala anaacha kichanuno: pale:
F: mm/
Kas: na:
F: kichanuno?
Kas: kichanuno yake ya: ya ku kichwa/
F: ya: ya nywele/
Kas: unaona yee: yee anakimbia anaenda mu mayi/
F: mm/
Kas: mais bushiko anakulotesha/
K: aah/
Kas: anakuambia asema: kwenda lokota: ile kintu niliacha pa ile fasi/ wee unalokota ile kintu: njo atakuambia ile kintu utafanya nayo hivi: utafanya hivi:
F: sawa hii...
Kas: sasa kupata bonheur/
F: sawa hii...
Kas: sawa saa/
F: sawa hii masaa yee: yee aliacha?
Kas: ndiyo/ na ukilukota: yee buhsiku anifikilia ku kichwa anakulotesha/
F: mm/
Kas: anasema: ile kintu niliiacha: utafanya hivi: utafanya hivi: utafanya hivi: kwa kuweza kupata: baati: muzuri/
F: baati ao ...?...
Kas: muzuri iko sawa bonne chance: bonheur/
F: bonheur?
Kas: si/
2. Alright then, (Mamba Muntu) is like this spirit. But how does she appear? What is the story behind her?
Kas: If you are lucky.
F: Mm.
Kas: You see her.
F: Mm.
Kas: In a big river. She will leave you something that belongs to her, be it the watch she put on her arm or her kichanuno there.
F: Mm.
Kas: And...
F: Kichanuno?
Kas: Her kichanuno, the one on her head.
F: (To comb) her hair.[2]
Kas: When you see her she flees and goes into the water.
F: Mm.
Kas: But at night she makes you dream.
K: Yes.
Kas: She tells you, go and recover what I left at this place. You recover this thing (she says) and then she’ll tell you this is what you do with it.
F: Like this...
Kas: Then you’ll get lucky.
F: Like this...
Kas: Like this watch.
F: Like the watches she left behind?
Kas: Yes. And when you have recovered it she comes at night into your head and makes you dream.
F: Mm.
Kas: Saying this thing I left, you do with it this and that so that you’ll get lucky.
F: Luck or...
Kas: It’s like a [in French]good chance, happiness.
F: Happiness?
Kas: Yes.
3. F: mm/ na bantu bote banasadiki?
Kas: ndiyo/
F: aah/ mm/
Kas: lakini iko nguvu/ habamuonake/ kila siku/
K: mm/
Kas: hapana/
F: hapana/
Kas: eeh/
K: paka kila muntu: muntu moya/
Kas: pa mara moya/ ku muntu moya tele/
F: mm/
Kas: maneno yee iko nguvu: pa kuonekana wanekana/
F: sasa yee muntu mwenye ku: kuona: mamba muntu: ata: ataelezea bantu bengine?
Kas: yee: hawezi ku: kuelezea muntu ingine paka ile siku anamuona/ anamuona sawa leo: anakwenda kulala kwa kusikia kwanza bushiku:
F: oui/
Kas: kintu gani itamufikilia/ na hakiisha kumuelezea ile kintu: atabakia sécret: uficho wa ye: wa yee mwenyewe/
F: ahah/
Kas: eeh/
3. F: Mm. And everyone believes this?
Kas: Yes.
F: Ah, mm.
Kas: But it is difficult, one does not see her every day.
K: Mm.
Kas: No.
F: No.
Kas: No.
K: (If at all) it the rare person (who sees her).
Kas: (She is seen) only once and then only by one person.
F: Mm.
Kas: But it is difficult because they don’t want to be seen.
F: Now, the person who has seen Mamba Muntu, is he going to tell others about it?
Kas: He must not tell anyone else on the day he as seen her. Say, he sees her today. Then he’ll go and sleep at night in order to comprehend....
F: Yes.
Kas: ...what is going to happen to him. And he won’t end up talking about this to anyone. It will remain a secret, something he keeps to himself.
F: Ahah.
K: Yes.
4. F: mm/ sasa hii: ile arisi ilitoka wapi? mais: maneno: hii wakati mi nilitembea mu Shaba: mu soixante-six: mi bado kuona hii tableaux/ kiloko tu/ sasa:
Kas: ...?...
F: inaingia fasi yote/
K: oui/
F: mm?
Kas: ndiyo/
F: ili: ilitoka wapi hii: hii
K: [aside to Kas] sema hapana/
F: hii tableaux?
K: eeh/ ilitoka wapi?
F: bali: bali: bali...?...
K: [overlapping] ...balishimisha na yake/
F: [overlapping]...?...ao: bali: bali: balianza kufanya hii tableaux wapi?
K: wapi eeh/
F: hapa: hapa mu Shaba ao?
Kas: ndi: sawa hapa my Shaba: eeh: tangu wa: wakati siku kiloko ina: inapita/
F: oui/
Kas: eh/ kiisha: baartistes: eh? banaanza kuwa na akili ya kuweza kutosha ile kintu/
F: mm/
Kas: beliona ile: ao ile belisikia/
F: c’est ça/
Kas: kiisha ku kwanza ku: kuiweka pa tableaux: kwa yua kujua kumbe: ile kintu inakuwaka sawa/
F: eyo/
Kas: ndiyo/
F: ahah/
Kas: ni mufano kama: eh: muntu anaenda fasi fulani/ anasema: kuko: fasi mwiko muzuri: kuko mayi hivi: kuko kilima hivi: kuko hivi: na artiste: kwa kusikia ile kintu iko kintu ya: ya: iko kintu muzuri/
F: mm/
Kas: ataweza ku: kufanya akili yake yote kwa kuweza kutosha ile kintu: ijulikane/ na batu mingi banapasha ku: kujua/
F: eyo/
Kas: ndiyo/
4. F: Mm. Now, where did this story come from? Because when I travelled in Shaba in sixty-six I did not yet see those paintings, (or) just a few. Nowadays...
Kas: ...?...
F: ...it has spread everywhere.
K: Yes.
F: Right?
Kas: Yes.
F: Where did it come from, this, this....
K: [aside to Kas] Say no.[3]
F: ...this picture?
K: Yes, where did it come from?
F: Did they...?...
K: [overlapping] they made her stand with her (painting).[4]
F: [overlapping] ...?...or where did they first make these paintings?
K: Where, yes.
F: Here in Shaba or (where)?
Kas: Here in Shaba (it began) not long ago.
F: Yes.
Kas: Eventually, the artists were clever enough to come up with this thing.
F: Mm.
Kas: They saw[5] it or they heard about it.
F: That’s it.
Kas: Then they put it in pictures so one would know, this is what this thing is like.
F: I see.
Kas: Yes.
F: Ahah.
Kas: For example, a person may go to a certain place and say, this place here is beautiful, there is water, there are mountains, what not, and the artist (paints it) when he feels that it is a beautiful thing.
F: Mm.
Kas: He will put all his intelligence into representing this thing so that it becomes intelligible. So that many people ought to recognize it.
F: I see.
Kas: Yes.
5. F: sasa kama tunaangaria hii bintu byote: beko nayo/ sasa minaona hii nywele yake ya mweushi: na nsula yake ni sawa nini? sawa: ni munzungu?
Kas: yee?
F: eh/
Kas: i: nsula iko: nsula ya mwanamuke: muzuri/
F: ya mwanamuke muzuri:
Kas: ndiyo/
F: muzungu ao?
Kas: muzungu/
F: muzungu tu?
Kas: ndiyo/
F: si hii inawa: inafanana na Japonais?
K: [chuckles]
Kas: kwa rangi/
F: kwa rangi?
Kas: ndiyo/
F: uliweka sawa?
Kas: [chuckles]
F: ulipata mawazo?
Kas: lakini: nilikuwa na mawazo ya kutosha paka nsula muzuri ya:
F: nsula muzuri?
Kas: ya muzungu/ ndiyo/
F: ya muzungu/ kiisha mu: mu sikio yake: iko na:
Kas: anavwala masikio/ shee tunasema masikio/
F: masikio/
Kas: mabou: boucles/
K: oui oui/
Kas: d’oreilles/
F: ah: boucles/ anavwalaka paka moya?
Kas: ndiyo/ anavwala: moya: inaonekana maneno yee....
F: [overlapping] ah oui oui/ maneno nywele: inapita/
Kas: ah: inazibia/
F: c’est ça/ inazibia/
Kas: ndiyo/
F: bon/ kiisha eko na: na nini: na saa yake:
Kas: mm/ iko na saa:
F: saa ni:
Kas: na komo...
F: maana yake ya saa? basi: uli: unaona hii ingine? iko na tatu: inne/
Kas: ndiyo/
F: bote beko na saa/
Kas: ndiyo/
F: sasa: maana yake ya saa: njo nini?
Kas: ile saa: uko: wakati ingine kama akuachia saa hapana: anakuachia kikomo/
F: kikomo/
Kas: ah i: kama kuacha kikomo hapana: ataacha kichanuno ya nywele/
F: mm/
Kas: ile: peignoir/ eh/ ku kila kintu yote ile: akikuwazia kama minamuachia kitu fulani: ni paka ile atakuachia/
F: ah bon/
Kas: [coughs]
F: kiisha iko na:
Kas: na ile bikoma ya:
F: bikoma:
Kas: ya mikono/ ndiyo/
F: bracelet/ na maillot de bain/
Kas: ndiyio/
F: njo fantaisie yako?
Kas: ndiyo/
F: [laughs]
Kas: ni kwa kutengenesha/
F: [laughs]
Kas: [chuckles]
F: bon/ kiisha: ya: kila mara: iko na nyoka/ na nyoka yake/
Kas: ndiyo/
F: ni kusema nyoka: nyoka ana: yee anafanya nini?
Kas: nyoka iko: rafiki yake mukubwa/
F: mm/
Kas: hawezi kuachana naye: iko yee anamupa: nguvu/
F: nguvu?
Kas: iko yee sawa: bwana yake/
F: sawa bwana yake?
Kas: ndiyo/ na nyoka vile vile iko paka wa: mu mayi tena/
F: aah: mu mayi?
Kas: mu mayi/ nyoka wa mu mayi/
F: ni nyoka bantu: banajua? ni: unajua jina yake ya: maneno jina inaachana: majina inaachana ya nyoka/
Kas: ndiyo/ yee: nyoka: batu: hapana ona yee na:
K: ku macho/
Kas: na macho/ ndiyio/
F: wee...
Kas: ni sawa njo kule kuko nguvu yake yee/
F: c’est ça/
Kas: ndiyo/
5. F: Now let’s look at all those attributes of (Mamba Muntu). I see her hair that is black and her face like that of what? Of a muzungu?[6]
Kas: She?
F: Yes.
Kas: Her face is the face of a beautiful woman.
F: Of a beautiful woman.
Kas: Yes.
F: (She is) a muzungu, right?
Kas: (She is) a muzungu.
F: Any muzungu?
Kas: Yes.
F: Doesn’t this one look Japanese?
K: [chuckles]
Kas: As far as the color (of the skin) is concerned.
F: The color?
Kas: Yes.
F: Did you put it on (on purpose)?
Kas: [chuckles]
F: Was this an idea you had?
Kas: The idea I had was just to bring out a beautiful face of ...
F: A beautiful face?
Kas: ...of a muzungu, yes.
F: Of a muzungu. Then, in her ears she has...
Kas: .... she wears masikio, we call them masikio.[7]
F: Masikio.
Kas: [In French] ear rings.
F: Yes, yes.
Kas: Ear rings.
F: Ah, ear rings. Does she wear just one?
Kas: Yes, it looks that way because she...
F: [overlapping] ...ah, yes, yes, because her hair covers (the other one).
Kas: Yes, it covers it up.
F: That’s it, it covers it up.
Kas: Yes.
F: Alright. And then, what else? About her watch.
Kas: Mm. She has a watch.
F: The watch is...
Kas: And a komo...
F: What does the watch signify? Did you this other (painting)? (There) she has three, four of them.
Kas: Yes.
F: They all have watches.
Kas: Yes.
F: Now, what is the meaning of the watch, what is it about?
Kas: About this watch – it may happen that she does not leave you a watch but a kikomo.[8]
F: Kikomo.
Kas: Yes, and if she doesn’t leave a kikomo then it will be a kichanuno for her hair.
F: Mm.
Kas: This [in French] comb[9], yes. About all those things – if she has made up her mind about which one to leave behind that will be the one she is going to leave for you.
F: Ah, alright.
Kas: [coughs]
F: Also, she has...
Kas: ...also those bikoma...
F: Bikoma.
Kas: ...on her arms, yes.
F: [In English] Bracelet[10]. And a swimming suit.
Kas: Yes.
F: Is this something you made up?
Kas: Yes.
F: [laughs]
Kas: It’s and embellishment.
F: [laughs]
Kas: [chuckles]
F: Alright. Furthermore, she always comes with a snake, her snake.
Kas: Yes.
F: What is the role of the snake?
Kas: The snake is a great friend of hers.
F: Mm.
Kas: She can never be without it. It’s (the snake) who gives her strength.
F: Strength?
Kas: It is is like her husband.
F: Like her husband?
Kas: Yes. And the snake, too, is always in the water.
F: Ah, in the water?
Kas: In the water. It’s a water snake.
F: Is it (a kind of ) snake people know? Do you know its name? Because there are different names for snakes.
Kas: Yes. (But) this snake, people cannot see it with...
K: ...with their eyes.
Kas: With their eyes, yes.
F: You...
Kas: It’s where her strength is.
F: That’s it.
Kas: Yes.
6. F: hii namna unasema Swahili: minawaza unatoka: Kongolo ao: ao wapi: kule ku baLuba/
Kas: eh kule minaenda kutembea/
F: kutembea?
Kas: ndiyo/
F: alafu ulizaliwa wapi?
Kas: minazaliwa na Kapanga/
F: Ka: panga/
Kas: Kapanga/
F: eyo/
Kas: mm/
F: na uli: ulifunda Swahili mu masomo?
Kas: nafunda maSwahili ku masomo na:
F: na sarufi/
Kas: ndiyo/
K: sarufi ndiyo/
F: [to Kabinda] sawa wee?
K: ndiyo/ nalifanya grammaire de ...?...
6: The way you speak Swahili makes me think that you come from Kongolo or some such place, up there in Luba country.
Kas: Well, I travelled there.
F: Travelling?
Kas: Yes.
F: But where were you born?
Kas: I was born in Kapanga.
F: Kapanga.
Kas: Kapanga.
F: I see.
Kas: Mm.
F: And you learned Swahili in school?
Kas: I learned Swahili in school with...
F: ... a grammar.
Kas: Yes.
K: A grammar, yes.
F: [to Kabinda] Same as you?
K: Yes. I did the [in French]grammar of ...?...
7. F: sasa hii mapaysage: ni kusema: ina: inaonekana sawa:
Kas: paysage iko ku mangaribi/
F: mangarabi/
Kas: iko ina: yua iniisha kuingia: yee: anatoka ku mayi: anakuya kupumuzika kule ku kikavu/ na kule mitoni: mutoni iko munene na bilima mingi: na vile: kwa mufano: vile miti inaonekana mu mbali:
F: c’est ça/
Kas: ni kusema: yee iko:
F: ndege inaruga:
Kas: miti ya mbali/ na ndeke: ziko anafwata ku mutoni: sawa karibu na jua pa unguka/
7. F: Now, about these landscapes[11] – they look like....
Kas: It’s a landscape in the evening.
F: (In the) evening.
Kas: The sun has set and she (Mamba Muntu) leaves the water and comes to rest there in a dry place. And then there is a river, a large river, and many mountains and also, for instance, trees that are visible far away.
F: That’s it.
Kas: In other words, she is...
F: (And there are) birds taking off.
Kas: Trees far away and birds following the river as the sun is about to set.
8. F: alafu ha: hauna na mawazo: juu ya nani: nani: alianza: zaidi: hii tableaux ni hii arisi yake? hauna na:
Kas: ile:
F: haukusikia: habari: sawa ile: ile muntu mwenye kuona mamba muntu ya mwa: ya mu mwanzo? ya mbele?
Kas: ile: ile?
F: ao ile fasi: ile fasi: bali: balimuona?
Kas: ile: bado sana sana/
F: non?
Kas: non/
F: bantu:
Kas: lakini mingi: nasi: mingi nasikia: iko mutoni Tanganyika/
F: ...?...
Kas: kule ka: karibu na bahari munene/
F: oui oui/
Kas: ah/ bantu mingi banasema kila mara: yee: ana: anaonekana: kila mara kule/
F: mm/
Kas: ku mutoni ya Ta: ile kisiwa ya Tanganyika: maneno yo inaingia mu ile bahari munene/
8. F: But don’t you have thoughts about who started (doing) these paintings and the stories (told) about her? Don’t you have...
Kas: (About) that...
F: Haven’t you heard reports about the first person to see Mamba Muntu? Before (others did)?
Kas: That, that one?
F: Or about the place where she was seen (first)?
Kas: About that – not yet, not really.
F: No?
Kas: No.
F: People...
Kas: But what I heard many saying was that it was on Lake Tanganyika.
F: ...?...
Kas: There, near the big lake (lit. sea).
F: Yes, yes.
Kas: Yes, many people say that this is where she always appears.
F: Mm.
Kas: In the river, or rather in the lake (called) Tanganyika because that is where it (she?) enters this big sea. [12]
9. F: sasa bantu baminingi banauza: non?
Kas: batu mingi?
F: mm/
Kas: ndiyo banauza/
F: mm/
Kas: banauza/
F: banaweka mu fasi ya:
Kas: banaweka mu nyumba: na fasi ...?...
F: [overlapping] zamani balikuwa na Sacré Coeur:
K: Sacré Coeur: ndiyo/
F: eh?
K: ndiyo/
F: [laughs]
K: ndiyo ni kweli/
F: [laughs]
K: ndiyo bwana: ilikuwa tu/
F: sasa banaweka mamba muntu/


K: mamba muntu/ [chukles]
F: [laughs]
K: na Sacré Coeur na mamba muntu vile vile: banaweka yote pamoya/
Kas: eeh/
F: alafu si: mamb: si kintu ya dini: non non?
K: si juu ki ya dini hapana/
Kas: hapana/
K: ni kintu tu ilitoka: ya: ku imaginaire/
F: ku imaginaire/
K: eh ndiyo/ bo bado kujua sana sana: paka ?cadre: iko/
9. F: Nowadays lots of people buy (Mamba Muntu paintings), no?
Kas: Lots of people?
F: Mm.
Kas: Yes, they buy (them).
F: Mm.
Kas: They buy (them).
F: They put up (the paintings) in a place...
Kas: They put them up in the house, in a place ...?.......
F: [overlapping] ... where in the old days they used to have a (picture of the) Sacred Heart.
Kas: The Sacred Heart, yes.
F: Right?
K: Yes.
F: [laughs]
K: Yes, that’s true.
F: [laughs]
K: Yes, bwana, that’s how it used to be.
F: Nowadays they put up a Mamba Muntu.
K: A Mamba Muntu. [chuckles]
F: [laughs]
K: They put them up together, both the Sacred Heart and Mamba Muntu.
Kas: Yes.
F: But (Mamba Muntu) has nothing to do with religion, right?
K: No, it is not about religion.
Kas: No.
K: It’s something that came out of the [in French] imaginary.
F: From the imaginary?
K: Well, yes. Before, it was not really known, there was just (the picture in) a frame.
10. F: maneno mara ingine balisema: aah: balikuwa Senegalais/ balikuwa kwanza na hii: histoire/ sijue kama:
K: ya kweli/ kama ya zamani/
F: balisema?
K: kama ya zamani ni kweli/
F: mm/
K: kwa sababu pale itawezekana/
Kas: ndiyo/
K: pale balikuwa baSenegalais: kipande kiloko njo kunatokea na hii bintu/ ...?... Senegalais unifanya mamba muntu: muntu kujua hapana: leta kafoto yake hivi: banafanya: inatoka: kunaisha inakuwa fasi yote: paka: mamba muntu/
Kas: ni kweli/
F: eyo/ muzuri/
K: ndiyo/
10. F. (I am asking) because sometimes it was said the it was the Senegalese who first had this story. I don’t know whether (this is true).
K: It’s true, if (you talk about) a time long ago.
F: (Was this what) people said?
K: If (you talk) about long ago it is true.
F: Mm.
K: Because then this could have been the case..
Kas: Yes.
K: Wherever there were Senegalese this kind of things would soon come up. ...?...A Senegalese (may have told a painter) do a Mamba Muntu for me. (The painter) did not know (what she was like but the Senegalese) would give him a small picture of her. It was painted, it came out well, and in the end there were Mamba Muntu pictures everywhere.
Kas: That’s true.
F: I see, fine.
K: Yes.
11. F: na wee: baba Kasongo: wee ulianza kupeintre: zamani?
Kas: eh: na niko mwaka: mbili/
F: mwaka mbili tu?
Kas: na kipande/
F: hii kazi ulifanya mbele: mbele: ulikala: sasa hata sasa: unafanya hii kazi?
Kas: hata sasa nafanya pa: kazi paka hii/
F: paka hii ya: ya:
Kas: nafanya hii: nafanya kubattre cuivre/
K: cuivre: tableaux/
Kas: oui ...?...
F: ah bon/
Kas: mm/ ndiyo/ na hii:
F: njo vile ulifanya zamani?
Kas: na paille/
K: eeh/
Kas: ndiyo/
K: iko tableaux ya paille:
Kas: [overlapping] hii tableaux ya paille:
K: na cosses ya: cosses de:
Kas: ya cosses de bananier:
F: ah bon/
Kas: njo anaonyesha ....?...kufanya wa nguvu/
F: ulifun: ulifunda wapi?
Kas: minafunza na rafiki moya/
F: mm/
Kas: eh/ alitoka na: Kigoma/
K: Kigoma/
F: Kigoma?
Kas: Kigoma/
F: eyo/
Kas: ndiyo/ na tulibakia naye siku mingi: kama...
F: hapa Kolwezi?
Kas: ...miezi sita/ hapa Kolwezi/
F: iko: sasa?
Kas: hapana/
F: aliisha kwe...
Kas: ...anaisha kurudia/
F: Kigoma?
Kas: ndiyo/
F: ni yee alikuwa kufanya: battre cuivre na:
Kas: cuivre na paille/
K: na paille/
F: na paille/
Kas: ndiyo/
F: eyo/
Kas: na tableaux...?... ya ndizi.
F: [overlapping]... sasa hii: tableaux: ulianza paka sasa?
Kas: tableaux niko na:
F: ulifunda na: na Kabinda?
Kas: na: na mwaka moya na kipande/
K: bamingi banakuya kwangu: banaona:
Kas: aah/
K: banafunda bote tu...?...
Kas: eh: sawa élèves/
K: ile ya:
F: élèves?
Kas: ndiyo/
F: eyo/ [pauses] unauzisha mingi?
Kas: tableaux?
F: tableaux.
Kas: ndiyo/
F: bantu banataka?
Kas: banapenda: banauza/
F: bazungu?
K: ndiyo/
Kas: vile vile/
K: ndiyo/
F: bon ni muzuri: sasa: ah: sawa tulisema hii bei itakuwa: Zaire tatu?
K: mm/
Kas: muzuri/
11. F: And you, baba Kasongo, did you start painting long ago?
Kas: Well, I have been doing it for two years.
F: Just two years?
Kas: And some.
F: What about the work you did before, did you stay with it, are you still doing now?
Kas: Even right now I still do this work.
F: Meaning what?
Kas: What is do is I beat copper.
K: Copper pictures.
Kas: Yes...?...
F: I see.
Kas: Mm. Yes, and this....
F: That is what you have been doing before...
Kas: And (pictures made from) straw.
K: Right.
Kas: Yes.
K: There is (such a thing as) a straw-painting.
Kas: [overlapping] Those straw-paintings.
K: (And others made from) pods, pods of...
Kas: ...banana pods.[13]
F: I see.
Kas: He showed ...?... (they are) difficult to make.
F: Where did you learn this?
Kas: I began with a friend.
F: Mm.
Kas: Yes, he came from Kigoma.
K: Kigoma.
F: Kigoma?
Kas: Kigoma.[14]
F: I see.
Kas: Yes, we were together for quite a while, for about...
F: Here in Kolwezi?
Kas: ...six months, here in Kolwezi.
F: Is he still around?
Kas: No.
F: He went...
Kas: He returned (home).
F: To Kigoma?
Kas: Yes.
F: His work was to beat copper.
K: Copper (and working) with straw.
K: And straw.
F: And straw.
Kas: Yes.
F: I see.
Kas: And pictures (made with) banana (leaves).
F: [overlapping] ...was it just recently that you started painting?
Kas: Paintings I have been....
F: Did you learn (this) from Kabinda?
Kas: ...(I have been painting) for more than a year.
K: Lot’s of people came to my place and saw (what I was doing).
Kas: Yes.
K: They all learned (from me).
Kas: Yes, like schoolboys.
K: Those that....
F: Schoolboys?
Kas: Yes.
F: I see.[15] [pauses] Do you sell a lot?
Kas: (You mean) paintings?
F: Paintings.
Kas: Yes.
F: People want them?
Kas: They like them and buy them.
F: What about Europeans?
K: Yes.
Kas: Also.
K: Yes.
F: Alright, fine. Now what did we say the price would be, three Zaire?
K: Mm.
Kas: Fine.
12. F: sasa: sijue kama: kumbe: [noise of something falling] ohoh: tuanze mu mwanzo/ [chuckles]
K: ndiyo/ ni kweli/
F: ni [sound of pouring drinks] eh: jina yako ni:
K: ni Ka...
F: ... Kabinda: na zamani ilikuwa Kabinda:
K: ilikuwa Ka: na zamani ni paka Kabinda Victor/ ni zamani/
F: Victor?
K: mm/
F: Victor/
K: sasa ni Kabinda: Kunkulu:
F: Kunkulu:
K: ?inaanza: paka: Victor ku mwisho/
F: ahah/
K: ndiyo/
F: Kunkulu/
K: ndiyo/ ile ni ya zamani Kabinda Kunkulu/ ya zamani/
F: ulizaliwa wapi?
K: minazaliwa ku Mutshatsha/
F: Mutshatsha?
K: hapana: nilizaliwa bulongo ya: Kinda/ après narudia ku Mutshatsha/
F: Kinda?
K: Kinda: kama: nalifanya masomo Kalemie/
F: njo wapi?
K: uko ngambo ya Baluba/
F: ya Baluba?
K: ndiyo njo nilizaliwa: niko mutoto: natoka: nafika Mutshatsha: nabakia kule ku bazazi yangu: kubakia wee: masomo hapana: nabakia na bakubwa: minatoka kule: nakuya hapa Kolwezi:
F: oui/
K: bazazi banduku tena hapana: na tuli...
F:...ulizaliwa miaka: mu mwaka gani?
K: mu: mu mille neuf cent vingt-sept/
F: vingt-sept?
K: ndiyo/
F: muzee gani/
K: zamani ndiyo bwana/ [chuckles]
F: hapana/ bado/
K: ndiyo/
F: mi niko trente-sept/
K: trente-sept? mm/ ndiyo/
F: bazazi bali: balikuwa ya kabila gani?
K: bazazi:
F: [overlapping] paka Baluba?
K: hapana/ kaNdembu/
F: kaNdembu?
K: ndiyo/
F: bote bawili?
K: ndiyo bote wawili: bengine: na nyumba iko sawa kaLunda:
F: mm/
K: eh/ mama yake kaNdembu: baba paka vile/ mm/
F: Kasongo vile vile?
K: eh: Kasongo ni kaLunda/
F: ni kaLunda?
K: ndiyo/
F: aah/
12. F: Now, I don’t know whether...[noise of something falling] ohoh, let’s start with the beginning. [chuckles]
K: Yes, true.
F: It is, [sound of pouring drinks] your name is...
K: It is Ka...
F: ...Kabinda. And it was Kabinda before.[16]
K: Before, it was Kabinda Victor. That’s what it was before.
F: Victor?
K: Mm.
F: Victor.
K: Nowadays it’s Kabinda Kunkulu.
F: Kunkulu.
K: That comes first, Victor in the end.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: Kunkulu.
K: Yes. This (is the name I was given long ago), Kabinda Kunkulu.
F: Where were you born?
K: I was born in Mutshatsha.
F: Mutshatsha?
K: No, I was born in (lit. on the soil of) Kinda.[17] I returned to Mutshatsha later.
F: Kinda?
K: Kinda. (But) I went to school in Kalemie.
F: Where is (Kinda)?
K: In Luba country.
F: Luba?
K: Yes, that’s where I was born. When I was still a child I left and came to Mutshatsha. There I lived with my parents for a while (but) there was no school. Then I lived with my older relatives (in Kalemie) and from there I came here to Kolwezi.
F: Yes.
K: Where there were no parents or older relatives (to stay with). So we...
F: ...what year were you born?
K: In nineteen hundred and twenty-seven.
F: Twenty-seven?
K: Yes.
F: An old man.
K: An old-timer, yes bwana. [chuckles]
F: No. Not yet.
K: Yes.
F: I was born in thirty-seven.
K: Thirty-seven? Mm, yes.
F: What was your parents’ ethnic group?
K: The parents...
F: [overlapping]...were they Luba?
K: No, Ndembu.
F: Ndembu?
K: Yes.
F: Both of them?
K: Yes, both of them. Others in the household were (more) like Lunda.
F: Mm.
K: Mother’s group was Ndembu, Father’s also. Mm.
F: Is Kasongo also (Ndembu)?
K: Well, Kasongo is Lunda.
F: He is Lunda?
K: Yes.
F: I see.
13. K: ndiyo/ njo pale nilitoka minakwenda Lubumbashi: tunafika kule...
F: mu mwaka gani?
K: mu Lubumbashi mu quarante: quarante: mu quarante-deux/
F: quarante-deux/
K: ndiyo/
F: kwa kijana/
K: ndiyo/ oh nikingali tu: ningali mutoto/
F: quinze/
K: quinze eeh ndiyo/ sasa minaanza masomo ku Saint Boniface: natumika wee ku Saint Boniface: minaweka paka ...?... septième primaire:
F: ya septième?
K: sixième primaire/
F: [overlapping] sixième primaire:
K: et plus: une année sixième préparatoire:
F: oui/
K: et pale pale: tunabakia minaanza kutafuta: fasi ya kazi: maneno mu masomo iko sawa nilitoka kiloko/ ni pale vile vile: ...?... na vile bilifungula masomo: Monsieur Romain-Desfossés:
F: oui/
K: muzee ilitaka na ku baba yangu bafunda kazi ya: ya peinture/ mu Avenue Moëro/ pale ka:
F: Avenue Moëro?
K: Avenue Moëro: kule chini/ nyumba ilikuwa yetu/ yote ilianzaka shee zamani/ mule mu Lubumbashi ilikuwa paka bulongo: hapana ciment/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/ minaanza pale: mu quarante: huit: minaanza masomo tena kwa Desfossés/
F: quarante-huit?
K: quarante-huit ya: ndiyo/ ...?... tena paka kiyana/
F: yee alifika mu: mu mwaka gani?
K: oh alifika mu: ni muzuri ?kwangu ni wa zamani ya kutoka ya kimasomo kwanza/ ya mu quarante-huit pale naanza masomo yake/
F: alikuwa:
K: iko Français/
F: Français/
K: yee iko Français/ ni muzee/
F: ah bon/
K: njo aliona kintu ya kufanya hapa sawa kumbe nianze masomo yangu: nifundishe: ile Etat atakuwa kunipa Makuta/
F: mm/
13. K. Yes, and then I left and went to Lubumbashi where we arrived ...
F: What year was that?
K: In Lubumbashi, that was in forty, forty-two.
F: Forty-two.
K: Yes.
F: In your youth.
K: Yes. Oh, I was just a child.
F: Fifteen.
K: Fifteen, yes. That was when I began school at St. Boniface. I worked for quite a while at St. Boniface, until I made seventh grade.
F: Seventh?
K: Sixth grade elementary.
F: [overlapping] Sixth grade elementary.
K: [in French] Plus one year in sixth grade preparatory.
F: Yes.
K: That was how far I got and I began to look for a place to work because I didn’t amount to much in school. It was then also that ...?... a school was opened, by M. Romain-Desfossés.
F: Yes.
K: The old man and my father(‘s people) wanted me to learn the work of painting.[18] On Avenue Moëro. There...
F: Avenue Moëro?
K: Avenue Moëro, down there where we had our house. Everything began with us in the old days.[19] In Lubumbashi there were dirt roads, no concrete.
F: I see.
K: Yes. That’s where I started, in forty-eight I started school with Desfossés.
F: Forty-eight?
K: Forty-eight, yes. I was still quite young.
F: What year did (Desfossés) arrive?
K: Ooh, he arrived in – at any rate, it was good (for me) because I got out of that regular school[20] first. In forty-eight I started at his school.[21]
F: He was...
K: ...he was a Frenchman.
F: A Frenchman.
K: He was a French and he was an older person.
F: I see.
K: He had been looking for something to do here (and decided) I am going to start my school here and teach, the government will give me money.
F: Mm.
14. K: ndiyo/ pale tulianza mu quarante-huit mu Avenue Moëro: anatafuta élèves: banakuwa mingi: na banamuke: na batoto: na bakubwa: na ba...
F: ...banamuke na:
K: na ba: beko nafanya: po: potterie/
F: potterie?
K: ndiyo/
F: aah/
K: ndiyo/ wanafanya potterie/ ule mwanamuke niliona vile vile mu cité/
F: hapa?
K: ndiyo/
F: moya ni hapa?
K: moya: minamuona: minas: ah ah/
F: ... ah inafaa:
K: mm/
F: inafaa tu: tukutane naye/
K: ah ndiyo: minakwenda ma: iko kule chini/
F: usisahabu eh?
K: hapana/ na ule bwana ule wa: ule Aron: ule tulikuwa naye kuchonga:
F: oui oui/
K: iko: na minaona/ twiko na ule njo na sasa minakwenda nafanya: nimuonyeshe/
F: iko mu cité sasa?
K: iko mu cité sasa: mi sema oh: minaona: bale bazungu ye...
F: ...ulimuona siku gani?
K: yenga paka hii/
F: aah/
K: eh/
F: inafaa tumuone/
K: ndiyo/ mi: mi nilimuambia asema tuone bazungu yetu ya zamani bale balikuwa banatusaidia/
F: mm/
K: balikuwa na Romain-Desfossés: hapana Monsieur ?Demat anakuwa sasa/ pale anakuwa Monsieur Demat: shee tunaisha bakuwa professeurs tunajua/
F: oui/
K: mi shikutumika yangu: mi pale minaingia na kazi ku ingine: ku bamarché/ ni kusema ku baKabala mwenzetu banaanza kutumika Monsieur Demat: na Monsieur Moonens/ sawa beko naleta cours beko banafundisha haba mwili/
F: Moonens?
K: Moonens/ ya: Monsieur Demat: Monsieur Moonens/ sasa mi pale natoka: niliingia na ku Fra: eh: ku Monsieur Pire Marcel/ pale pe: pa Peké/ pale yulu/
F: oui/
K: eh ndiyo/ natumika...
F: ...yulu ya Peké?
K: ya Peké: mi njo ilikuwa ile chambre ya: moya ya: Monsieur Pire Marcel/ moya ni chambre yangu/ yee njo alikuwa alinilipia yote/
F: na yee alikuwa na atelier yake?
K: na atelier yake/
F: mm/
K: sasa mi nalipa atelier moya/
F: mm/
K: sasa: nasema: kwa: kwa Desfossés hakufunda mingi/
F: mm/
K: nilifunda paka ndeke: na bintu bingine na nyama: na maarts ingine/
F: mm/
14. K: Yes. There, on Avenue Moëro, we started in forty-eight. He looked for students and many came, women, children, adults, and...
F: ...and women.
K: They did pottery.
F: Pottery?
K: Yes.
F: Ah.
K: Yes. They did pottery. This one woman I saw in the cité.[22]
F: Here?
K: Yes.
F: One of them lives here?
K: One of them, I saw her. I said to myself, I don’t believe it.
F: Ah, we must...
K: Mm.
F: We must meet with her.
K: Yes, I go (to see her). She lives there, in the lower part (of the township).
F: Don’t forget, right?
K: No. And this gentleman, this Aron, the one who was with us as a carver.
F: Yes, yes.
K: He is here, I see him around. We were together with him. What I’ll do right now is go and inform him.
F: He lives in the cité now?
K: He lives in the cité now. When I saw him there, I said, oh, those Europeans...
F: ...when did you see him?
K: Just this weekend.
F: Aah.
K: Yes.
F: We must see him.
K: Yes. I told him let’s see our Europeans (like) in the old days, those who used to help us.
F: Mm.
K: The ones who were with Romain-Desfossés, or rather, it was Monsieur ?Demat at the time. Then it was Monsieur Demat, he was among the professors (at the Academy) we knew.
F: Yes.
K: I was not working on my own (as a painter) then. I had taken up another kind of work, among the market people. What I am saying is that people like Kabala, who was in our group, began to work with Monsieur Demat and Monsieur Moonens. Those two were teaching classes.
F: Moonens?
K: Moonens. Monsieur Demat, Monsieur Moonens.[23] So when I left I went (to work) with Monsieur Pire Marcel, at the Peké, upstairs.
F: Yes.
K: Yes, I worked...
F: ... upstairs at the Peké?
K: At the Peké. I had a room of Monsieur Pire Marcel’s. On of them was my room, he was the one who paid everything for me.
F: And he had his atelier (there)?
K: He had his atelier (there).
F: Mm.
K: Then I rented an atelier.
F: Mm.
K: At that time I told myself there wasn’t much to learn from Desfossés.
F: Mm.
K: I only learned (to paint) birds, other things like animals, and other arts.
F: Mm.
15. K: sasa yee njo alinifundisha mapaysages/ na portraits/
F: Pire: Pire Marcel?
K: Pire Marcel/
F: oui/
K: ndiyo/ alinifundisha: nilifunda asema ndiyo: bahari ya hivi iko muzuri/ iko bintu ya: ya Romain-Desfossés/ kumbe vile: na mi utaona haya yangu/ tunatumika naye mwaka mbili/ na vile anafunga bintu yake: anakwenda mu Zambia/ minatoka kule: nabakia mu cité: niliingia ku passeports...?...
F: mu cité: mu Lubumbashi?
K: mule mu Lubumbashi mu Kenia/
F: mm/
K: niliingia kazi ya ku passeports: aah:
F: kazi ya nini: gani?
K: ya: ya: commis/
F: ya commis?
K: ndiyo/ njo nilitumika/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/ wee asitenir hapana/ mwezi: mbili: asema kazi hakuna/ tunatoka/ njo pale minaingia ku TRABEKA: kazi ya infirmier: balinituma ku base militaire Kamina:
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo: natumika kule: mu cinquante-deux: [pauses] mu cinquante-deux? ah non: mu soixante: soixante-huit narudia/
F: mm/
K: njo pale tunabakia wee: eh si ...?... soixante-huit: cinquante-huit/
F: oui oui/
K: ndiyo/ nabakia wee: na pale pana: kuwa mavita...?...inaisha pale pale: natoka: mina: minasema nakwenda Kolwezi minafanya kazi ya peinture/
F: c’est ça/
K: ndiyo/ nakuya na huku nafika Père Pascal: alinipokelea/
F: ah Père Pascal?
K: ndiyo/ a: alifanya muzuri ananipa nyumba ya bule njo pale nalikuwa nayo mwaka yote/
F: hii muntu ya: ya baLunda/
K: aah ndiyo: ni kweli/
F: [chuckles]
K: ni kweli bwana/ nabakia pale: nyumba kule unatumika: na ...?... unauzisha:
F: alikuleta bu: nyumba/
K: bule tu/ eeh bule/
F: wapi: mu cité?
K: hapana: mu paka mu ville/
F: mu ville?
K: pa Notre Dame des Lumières/ bale basoeurs bamères bapères balinijua me bote/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/
F: na: na:
K: na matableaux kule wa...
F: miaka: mu mwaka gani?
K: mule ni mu soixante-deux/
F: mu soixante-deux/
K: ndiyo/ soixante-deux:
F: wakati ya Katanga/
15. Now, what he taught was landscapes, and portraits.
F: Pire, Pire Marcel?
K: Pire Marcel.[24]
F: Yes.
K: Yes. He taught me. I learned and he would say yes, the sea like that, this is fine (or) this is Romain-Desfossés stuff. (When he made such comments) to me you could see that I was ashamed. We worked together for two years, then he packed his belongings and went to Zambia. So I left this place, I lived in the cité, and joined the passports (office)...
F: In the cité, (you mean) in Lubumbashi?
K: In Lubumbashi, in Kenia township.
F: Mm.
K: I took up a job at the passports (office), and then...
F: What kind of job?
K: As a clerk.
F: As a clerk?
K: Yes, that was my work.
F: Ah, alright.
K: Yes. It didn’t last[25] long. After two months I was told, there is no more work. So we left. Then I joined TRABEKA[26], as a male nurse and was sent to the military base at Kamina.
F: I see.
K: Yes. I worked there in fifty-two, [pauses] was it in fifty-two? Ah no, in sixty, sixty-eight. In sixty-eight I came back (to Lubumbashi?).
F: Mm.
K: Yes. That’s where we lived for a while. Wait, it wasn’t (till) sixty-eight but fifty-eight.
F: Yes, yes.
K: Yes. I stayed there for quite a while. And the then the wars came and that was the end of it in that place. I left, telling myself, I go to Kolwezi and work as a painter.
F: That’s it.
K: Yes. When I arrived here it was Père Pascal who gave me a home.
F: Ah, Père Pascal?
K: Yes. He was good to me, gave me free housing and so I stayed there all those years.
F: He was a man of the Lunda.[27]
K: Aah, yes, that is true.
F: [chuckles]
K: That is true, bwana. I lived in a house there, painting and selling.
F: So he gave you a house.
K: Without rent, for free.
F: Where, in the cité?
K: No, right in town.
F: In town?
K: At Notre Dame des Lumières[28]. All the (missionaries), nuns and priests, knew me.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: And ...
K: And the paintings there...
F: ...What year was that?
K: In this place – that was in sixty-two.
F: In sixty-two.
K: Yes. Sixty-two.
F: In the time of Katanga(‘s secession).
16. K: ya: ndiyo/ nabakia pale: sasa minatumika wee: minaona penti haitembee hapana/ njo minaleta mapièces yangu ya masomo: bananiingisha ma administration:
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/ mu soixante-cinq minaanza mu administration: na vile vile: na hapa: banakuya chef Mobutu: pale: na kazi balifanya mitashuka ku Lubumbashi: na vile vile: banasema bananipa congé limité/ balituma congé limité na grade banatushusha:
F: mm/
K: pale pale sasa: na kazi inaisha: minaanza kazi yangu tena ya peinture/
F: uliacha kazi ingine ya: uliacha lote?
K: niliacha lote maneno bananipa congé limité: sasa mitaku?linda na batoto? kwashipo ...?...
F: ...congé limité sa: sababu ya nini?
K: eh maneno kazi: bote bamingi na huyu: ...?...tu bantu natumika naye bureau moya/
F: oui/
K: asema kazi: bote: bacommis bote nilikuwa natumika:
F: balitosha bacommis?
K: bote: bote/ shee tuko na mapièces tuko naye ya congé/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/
16. K: Yes. I stayed there and kept working but I saw that painting did not go well. So I submitted my school certificates and was accepted at the Administration.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. In sixty-five I started at the Administration. What happened then was that Mobutu became chief and I was to move with my service down to Lubumbashi. I was told that I was given a temporary leave. They sent put us on leave and demoted us to a lower grade.
F: Mm.
K: So, now that this job was finished I once again took up my work as a painter.
F: The other job you gave up altogether?
K: I gave it up because they put me on temporary leave. How was I going to take care of my children? Without...
F: ...temporary leave, why?
K: Well, it had to do with the work – (it affected) all of them, the many people I worked with in the same office.
F: Yes.
K: All the jobs, all the clerks I used to work with.
F: They fired the clerks?
K: All of them, all of them. (All we had) were attestations that we were on leave.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
17. F: ulikuwa na: mu administration gani?
K: mu administration nilikuwa commis-chef/
F: oui ma: mu bureau gani?
K: [overlapping] ku ...?...ku nani: ku musée/
F: ku musée?
K: ndiyo: mi nalikuwa najua bintu ya musée yote/
F: sasa hii musée: inafungwa?
K: musée: na sasa iko/
F: wapi?
K: iko: iko kule ku nani: ku: quartier kule karibu na poste/
F: iko wazi?
K: na leo ile ya iko wazi/
F: utaweza kuingia kuangaria bintu?
K: ndiyo utaweza kuingia/
F: banabakia beko na bintu?
K: ndiyo/ maneno mi: pale balini...
F: ...nani ni directeur?
K: nani: huyu Mizi/ tulikuwa tunatumika napo/ na njo balibakia sasa pale/
F: Amisi?
K: Mizi/
F: Mizi?
K: ndiyo/ Mizi: njo anabakia kule/ sasa:
F: beko na bintu gani?
K: beko na mastatuettes: biko: ah bintu ya musée iko mingi/ eeh/
F: ya mingi?
K: ndiyo/
F: eyo/
K: na pale pale tunaongoya: akasema: utaongoya paka kazi/ njo pale minatumika kazi ya peinture:
F: karibu na poste?
K: na poste/
F: na hii nyumba ya: ya Mungu ya maGrecs?
K: ndiyo/ ah nyumba ya waGriki uko: ndiyo/
F: oui/
K: sasa ile ya télécommunication:
F: oui oui/
K: ile moya ingine ya étages/
F: aah/
K: iko musée/ ni ile pale/
F: ah bon?
K: ndiyo/
F: mi bado kujua/
K: njo ile nilikuwa natumika/
F: eyo/
K: ndiyo/
F: mm/
17. F: What was the Administration you worked for?
K: In the Administration I was chief clerk.
F: Yes but what was the office?
K: [overlapping] It was at the Museum.
F: At the Museum?
K: Yes, I knew everything about the Museum.
F: Nowadays this Museum is closed, right?
K: The Museum still exists.
F: Where?
K: In the neighborhood of the post office.
F: Is it open?
K: It’s open, even today.
F: Can you get in and look at things?
K: Yes, you can get in.
F: Do they still have objects?
K: Yes. Because when they made me...
F: ...Who is the director.
K: Who is it again, this guy Mizi. We used to work with him and (he is among those) who are left there now.
F: Amisi?
K: Mizi.
F: Mizi?
K: Yes. Mizi is still there. Then...
F: What kind of things do they have?
K: They have statuettes, they have – ah, the Museum has lots of things, yes.
F: Lots?
K: Yes.
F: I see.
K: And it was during the time when we were waiting around, being told to wait for a job, that I worked as a painter.
F: (The Museum) is close to the post office?[29]
K: (Close) to the post office.
F: And to the Greek house?
K: Yes, the Greek house is there. Yes.
F: Yes.
K: And then there is this telecommunications building.
F: Yes, yes.
K: And another multi-story house.
F: Yes.
K: That’s where the Museum is.
F: Really?
K: Yes.
F: I never knew about it.
K: That’s where I worked.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: Mm.
18. K: na pale banatupa congé limité/ njo pale minaanza tena kazi ya peinture maneno ya kulisha batoto: ...?... père de cinq enfants/ wee: na sasa kazi ya peinture/ njo tunaongoya kama batatuita: kama bado: njo tunakuwa na sasa/ njo mm: njo ile: nafanya njo kintu...
F: na ina: inaendelea vizuri? unauzisha?
K: ah tunauzisha tena mingi hapana/
F: non?
K: ndiyo/ hatuuzisha tena mingi/ uzisha tu kiloko: siku unauzishaka muzuri...
F: sawa: kwa mufano mu mwezi moya:
K: mwezi moya?
F: unauzisha na: na ngapi?
K: mwezi moya utaweza ku: zamani: nilikuwa nauzisha mwezi moya: beko nauza tableaux tatu inne/ ku bale baFrançais belikuyaka/
F: mm/
K: naweza kuya vingt-cinq: moya vingt-cinq Zaire/ moya quinze/
F: mm/
K: moya ngapi/ sasa hakuna/ sasa hakuna mu ile bei/ paka munene: shijue: ah: sawa wapi/ [chuckles] njo lakini ni kweli/ sasa hakuna/ paka huit Zaire: cinq Zaire: dix Zaire munene: paka vile/ hapana kupita pale non/
F: ndiyo/
K: ndiyo/ njo ile ...?... inaendelesha wee: na bale benzetu baélèves natumika nao: tunakwenda: banatupa kiloko: na banakabulia: maneno na bo kazi hapana/
F: c’est ça/
18. K: So, when they put us on temporary leave I took up painting again to feed the children...?... I am the father of five children. All that time I have been working as a painter. Up to this day we are (still) waiting to be called back but it hasn’t happened. Mm, that is what I have been doing...
F: Does (the painting) go well? Are you selling?
K: Ah, we don’t sell much anymore.
F: No?
K: No. We don’t sell anymore. Just a little. On a good day you may sell...
F: (How many), for instance, in a month...
K: One month?
F:...how many (paintings) do you sell?
K: In a month you could – in the old days I used to sell three or four paintings per month, to the Frenchmen who came here.
F: Mm.
K: I could get twenty-five Zaire for one (painting), or fifteen for another one.
F: Mm.
K: (And who knows) how much for another one. Nowadays (no one pays) that much. Except for a large (painting), I don’t know but I doubt it. [chuckles] That’s the truth. Not nowadays. (All you get is) eight Zaire, five Zaire, ten Zaire for a big one, that’s how it is. No more than that.
F: Yes.
K: Yes. That’s what keeps us going, together with the students I work with. We go around, people give us a little and they share it because they don’t have jobs.
F: That’s it.
19. K: inafaa kusaidia/ mu kazi ya peinture/ njo pale vile vile beko wanafundaka na comme ça/ ile minafunda ni kazi yee na mweye: akili yenu itaendaka siku ingine: kufanya: pa: pa kufanya kintu hapana: unafanya peinture: iko kazi moya munene/
F: oui/
K: wee ulifunda ku masomo/
F: oui/
K: mi minafunda kwangu/ sasa mwee kutupatiamo/ eh: mi ku masomo vile vile: balikuwa banatulipa/ ...?...Romain-Desfossés banatulipa: na Monsieur: Moonens: nilikuwa wanalipa/
F: ah:
K: paka Monsieur Pire Marcel: kulipa hapana/
F: hapana?
K: hapana hata/ yee atafanya: atakusaidia paka kazi: yee kulipa hapana/ analipa na atelier munene...
F: na wee uli: na wee ulipashwa kuuzisha: enfin?
K: na kuuzisha nguvu kabisa/ ndiyo nakuwa kuuzisha kabisa/ baclients banakuya mule mwenyee:
F: alafu mu Desfossés: ni: ni mweye...
K: kuuzisha hapana/
F: ... kuuzisha?
K: ah ah: kuzisha banamufunga: banatosha ku masomo/ hata moya kuuzisha hapana/ ndiyo/ ah/ kwa Desfossés kuuzisha hapana/ maneno...
F: maneno beko balikamata bei?
K: ndiyo/ yee mwenyewe anakamata bei yote/ anauzisha alafu Makuta anaitupa/ analeta Makuta/ ya kusaidia/
F: ya mingi ao ya ku:
K: ya kuenea tu: ya kusaidia kuuzia bintu: alafu: ni...
F: ...alors bei: hii Makuta: hii ya: ya:
K: ya ile:
F: sawa vile kama: kama mulipata prix:
K: ndiyo/
F: ao medaille ao: hapana?
K: hapana/ ah vile hakuna/ njo hatukupata hapana/...?...
F: uliisha: uliisha: ah: kusikia jina yake ya Sartenaer?
K: Kabinda?
F: non Sartenaer/
K: Sartenaer?
F: muzungu moya mu: mu Lubumbashi/
K: mu Lubumbashi hapana/ minajua Monsieur Pire Marcel: na Frank Walter/
F: Frank?
K: Walter/ njo tunakuwa tunatumika naye: kule ku Académie ya sasa/
19. K: You have to help (each other) in this business of painting. So now they are learning in this way. What I teach[30] is this: There is the work and there is you. It may happen that you won’t get far enough to paint something. Working as a painter, (you will find) that this is big work.
F: Yes.
K: You learned at a school.
F: Yes.
K: I learned by myself. So now it is your turn to give us something. When I was in school we were paid. Romain-Desfossés paid us and when I was working with Monsieur Moonens they paid.
F: Ah.
K: Only Monsieur Pire Marcel, he didn’t pay.
F: No?
K: No, nothing. What he would do is to help you with your work but he did not pay. He rented a large atelier...
F: And you had to sell (your paintings)?
K: And how. Yes, I was selling a lot. Customers would come to the place for that.
F: But at Desfossés,’ was it you (yourself)...
K: There was no selling.
F: ...who sold?
K: Oh no, if (someone was caught selling) he would be locked up and expelled from the school. There wasn’t a single person who did any selling, no. Ah, there was no selling at Desfossés, because...
F: Because they took the earnings?
K: Yes, he himself took whatever came in. He did the selling but the money he threw away. He did give (you) money to help you.
F: A lot, or just...
K: Enough to get along, to help with buying stuff but it was...
F:...but not the earnings, the money that came in...
K: That, (no).
F: For instance, when you got a prize...
K: Yes.
F: Or a medal (would you get the money? No.
K: No. Ah, nothing like that. He wouldn’t give that to us. ...?...
F: Have you ever heard of a person called Sartenaer?
K: Kabinda?
F: No, Sartenaer?
K: Sartenaer? [31]
F: A European in Lubumbashi.
K: In Lubumbashi, no. I know Monsieur Pire Marcel and Frank Walter.
F: Frank?
K: Walter. They were the ones we worked with, there in the Académie that still exists today.
20. F: bon/ kumbe: turudie kiloko mu: mu: eh: mwanzo/ kumbe hii: ile wakati mulianza na:
K: Desfossés/
F: Desfossés:
K: mm/
F: nani alikuwa mu atelier yake?
K: ilikuwa mu atelier yake: Desfossés: mulikuwa Pilipili:
F: Pilipili:
K: Kabala: Mbela: Mwenze: Kabinda: et: [pauses] moya minaisha kumusahabu: iko ku nani: ku: ku Kamina/ yee hakutaka na peinture: ...?... ilijua penti muzuri: hatake ile penti yee hapana/ ...?... ku bi: kuamisha kwa nguvu hakutake/ na vile vile banamuke bengine mingi:
F: oui/
K: na: Aron: alikuwa anachonga miti/
F: Aron/
K: Aron/ iko sasa ku Zambia/
F: oui/
K: vile vile nduku yake moya iko humu: njo shijue majina: bantu balikuwa bamingi naisha bajua/
F: na sasa wee: ulisema nini: kama iko mu cité?
K: ah yee ule mwanamuke: ule kwa potterie...
F: ule mwanamuke?
K: iko mu cité/
F: hapana Haroun/
K: hapana Haroun: hap: nduku yake Aron/
F: ya:
K: wa ule iko mu cité/
F: bon/
K: ule eko nachonga sawa Aron...
F: usisahabu tu: mina: yee anabakia lote mu ci: ci: cité hivi?
K: anabakia lote/
F: ah bon/
K: iko ...?.../
F: anafanyaka tena: potterie?
K: yee: ule mwanamuke?
F: oui/
K: iko nafanya potterie/ minaona: tu ingine potterie mu: mu cité mule: mingi/
F: mingi?
K: ah: minasema: yee batoto njo bananipeleka asema ni yee/
F: ni we: wee unajua: eh: nymba yake?
K: nyumba yake anajua paka huyu/ huyu anatoka/
F: ah bon/
K: ah: minasema: oh: yee anasema baba unajua hii mwanamuke? asema minasema tulikuwa naye Lubumbashi/ tulikuwa kwa Desfossés zamani/
F: oui oui/
K: mm/ tulingali mu Avenue Moëro: yee kunijua hapana/
F: usisahabu ah?
K: mi nilikuwa batoto: yee alikuwa paka vile muntu mukubwa: anazeka:
F: oui/
K: eh/
F: anazeka sasa?
K: aah hanazeka mingi: anazeka tu hivi/
F: oui/
K: ya nguvu iko natembea: banafanya potterie yake: maneno bisaidia ku mamuti/
F: bon/ kumbe: tufanye nini? ah: ah: una: unamuuliza hii: Kasongo/
K: ndiyo/
F: kamata: kuonyesha/
K: aah: Kasongo: maneno tuko naye pamoya atanionyesha/
F: c’est ça/
K: kule karibu ya Kasongo/ njo beko na ule mwanamuke/
F: [overlapping] tutafika kule ku nyumba: tutasumbulia naye...
K: tu: tunakwenda/ ndiyo utakwenda pamoya: na ...?... ule mama/
F: bon/
K: ndiyo/
F: mm/
K: njo vile/
F: na sa: hata hii nduku ya: Aron.
K: nduku ya Aron njo mwenyewe pale nilimuonyesha/
F: oui/
K: mambo ya ...?... tupate wazungu sawa tulikuwa naye Lubumbashi/
F: mm/
K: sawa wa ba...?.../ sema hakuwaka kunionyesha? mi asema hapana: minaenda/ kama hapana ataulisha: mitabakufikisha/
F: na yee ana: anachonga?
K: anachonga wanamuti: sawa vile alikuwa nachonga Aron/ muti tu ya kweli sa: sawa Aron/
F: sawa Aron?
K: ah maneno yee anatumika na Aron: na: kule kwa Desfossés pale: inafaa tu mwezi moya ajue: nduku yake iko natumika paka na Aron/
F: mm/
K: pale alikufa Desfossés/
F: mm/
K: mu cinquante/ mule pale alikufa ya mpombe/ njo pale...
20. F: Fine. Now let’s go back a little, to the beginning, to the time when you started out with...
K: Desfossés.
F: Desfossés.
K: Mm.
F: Who was in his atelier?
K: In Desfossés’ atelier there was Pilipili.[32]
F: Pilipili.
K: Kabala, Bela, Mwenze,[33]Kabinda[34], and [pauses] another one (whose name) I forgot, he is now in Kamina. He didn’t want to paint. He knew how to paint beautifully, he just didn’t like this kind of painting, nor did he like the effort it took.[35] And there were also quite a few women.
F: Yes.
K: And (a certain) Aron, he carved wood.
F: Aron.
K: Aron. He is now in Zambia.
F: Yes.
K: A relative of his lives here. About the names, I don’t know, there were so many people I got to know.
F: What was it you said, (about one of them) who lives in the cité?
K: Yes, this woman who did pottery.
F: Was it this woman?
K: She lives in the cité.
F: (So) it wasn’t Haroun.
K: Not Haroun, his relative, Aron.
F: Yes.
K: (The relative) of the one who lives in the cité.
F: Right.
K: That one is a carver like Aron.[36]
F: Don’t forget, I – is he staying in the cité for good?
K: He lives there permanently.
F: I see.
K: He is there ...?...
F: Does she still do pottery?
K: The woman (I mentioned)?
F: Yes.
K: She does pottery. I see others (doing) pottery, there are many of them there in the cité.
F: Many?
K: When the youngsters brought the news I told myself that must be her.
F: Do you know her house?
K: He[37] is the one who knows her house, the one who left.
F: I see.
K: Ah, I told myself when he said, baba do you know that woman? I told him we used to be together in Lubumbashi. We were at Desfossés’ in the old days.
F: Yes, yes.
K: Mm. We were (together) on Avenue Moëro (but) she doesn’t know me.
F: You won’t forget, right?
K: I was among the youngsters while she was an adult, like an older person.
F: Yes.
K: Yes.
F: She is old now?
K: Well, she is not ancient, just old.
F: Yes.
K: She has trouble walking (but) they (still) do her pottery because she has help with the (fire) wood.
F: Alright. So, what are we going to do? You ask Kasongo.
K: Yes.
F: Get hold him to show (you the place).
K: Ah, Kasongo. He’ll show me because we are together.
F: That’s it.
K: They live close to Kasongo’s, the people with whom this woman is staying.
F: [overlapping] We’ll get there to her home and talk with her...
K: We’ll go there, yes, you come along and talk to this mama.
F: Fine.
K: Yes.
F: Mm.
K: That’s how (we are going to do it).
F: And also this relative of Aron’s.
K: Aron’s relative, he is the one whom I informed.
F: Yes.
K: About this matter of getting in touch with Europeans like the ones we were together with in Lubumbashi.
F: Mm.
K: Like the ...?... He said, why didn’t you tell me about that? I said no, I am going to (see them first). Even if they[38] don’t ask for it I am going to get them to your place.
F: And he is the one who does the carving?
K: He carves wooden figures just like Aron used to do. Wood carvings exactly like Aron.
F: Like Aron?
K: Yes, because he worked with Aron there at Desfossés’. It took him just a month to know (how to carve). Being his relative he just worked with Aron.
F: Mm.
K: At the time when Desfossés died.
F: Mm.
K: It was in was in the fifties, that’s where he drank himself to death (lit.died of beer). That’s where it was.
21. F: bon/ kumbe: kuli: mulikuwa na hii bantu ya: na a: na bale bantu:
K: mm/
F: mbele ya kuingia ya: mu: mu: chapu ya:
K: ya Desfossés/
F: ya Desfossés:
K: mm?
F: balikuwa kupenta?
K: ah: kujua hapana/ hata moya: hata moya: hata shee bote: yee mwenyewe nguvu yake/ anaonesha...
F: ...sasa alichagula namna gani?
K: kuchakula tu: ni kupenta: iko sawa kintu: asema mutapima/ ni bintu ya kutupa: ni mapapiers/
F: mm/
K: na tuko papier pistole: kila muntu na dessin: ku masomo alikuwa na dessin na waka unajua ule dessiner/ sawa ku masomo nilikuwa nadessiner/ ku fulani masomo yetu ya bule/
F: oui/
K: sasa bon/ fwata sawa vile ulikuwa nadessiner ku matafu: ku masomo/ utafuta wee mwenyewe akili yapo mule mu kichwa/ hapana kusema paka unionyeshe ile kintu hauone hapana/ utafuta ya mu kichwa/ njo unadessiner ule unataka: kasa pale njo unapenti/ sasa kama iko muzuri unaweka/ kama hai: haina muzuri: ni kuweka paka ile kufanya: paka vile shiku yote/
F: mm/
K: na vile tunaendelea: hakuna kufanya asema: kwiko muntu kujua [chuckles] hata moya: hata/ paka Pire Marcel/ njo kulikuwa wa kujua ni mi/ na kwa Moonens/ paka bakujua bale ba zamani/
F: oui/
K: ndiyo/
F: kiisha: [pauses] bon/ unasema kama Desfossés ali: alimufunza/ mm?
K: yee njo alifundisha: ali:
F: aliwafundisha/
K: mm/
F: alifundisha/
K: alikuwa muntu wa jua...
F: ...mais: kufundisha namna gani? alisema nini: ali: ali: ali: muonyesha?
K: [with emphasis] hapana kuonyesha/
F: non/
K: iko muntu ilifanya sawa iko na masomo/ alifanya masomo yake mu Avenue Moëro/
F: oui/
K: ile nyumba ilikuwa ya Regie des Eaux/ tulikuwa nyumba ingine kaloko: hapana ile ya étage munene/
F: mm/
K: njo pale anasema anataka batoto: bakubwa: bale ba kujua kazi/ bengine banataka: oh: kazi ya dessin: ni kazi gani? hatujue pale kumbe ni kazi ya kweli/ njo ku ingine kwenda:
F: yee alikuwa pe: yee mwenyewe alikuwa peintre?
K: peintre: wa kweli: Desfossés anatumika penti: bwana: muzuri sana/
F: mm/
K: eheh/ asema kila: yee anatumika penti: pinceaux: bilole: sawa Bela:
F: mm/
K: yoote Desfossés anajua/ na portraits/
F: mm/
K: yee anajua eeh/ yee anajua portraits sana/
F: mm/
K: sasa njo: kutufundisha: kuleta mapapiers: njo pa kufundia na crayon: na njo kuleta na ile mapenti: iko anapitisha asema unapitisha hivi: humu inakuwa: couleur hivi: humu inakuwa blanc: sasa après: kunaisha/ hapana kuacha fond bule: iko sawa iko bunji: inafaa ku décorer: il faut ikuwe heshima:
F: mm/
K: sawa hivi: eh/ njo vile weee/ bantu: bananza kujua kiloko kiloko: angaria bintu: ah: sema aaah: ni bintu inaonaka sawa ni foto/ kumbe ya ku mukono/
F: mm/
K: bantu banaanza kushangala: Lubumbashi yote/ sema aah ni ule muzee wa Français njo anafundisha ile kazi/ njo pale bamingi: banakimbiakimbia kule/ banabakia shee kiloko/ pale pa kubakia she kiloko:
F: nani ali: alikimbia?
K: ba: ooh: kulikuwa baélèves mingi kupita/ balikuwa na maquarante/
F: quarante?
K: ooh: tuko tunajiona hapana/ balikuwa bamingi/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/ banakimbia bote/ njo kunabakia bale kiloko: na ule mwanamuke: na ule mwanamuke nayee...
F: ...na mwanmuke: jina yake ni nini?
K: Francisca/
F: Francisca?
K: eeh ndjiyo njo ilikuwaka jina: alakini ingine sikujua hapana/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/ na vile yee naye yake ilitokaka: anatoka kule: pale minaisha kutoka: na ule mwanmuke anatoka/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/ njo pale na sasa/ njo tunabakia na sasa/ kazi ile ya masomo iko muzuri/
F: mm/
K: kama ilikuwa na hata bengine banaanza ile Académie: inafaa tena kufwata/
F: mm/
K: ni kazi haishake hapana kiisha ya mwaka yote/
F: mm/
K: njo ile mambo/
21. F: Alright. So you were together with those people.
K: Mm.
F: Before they joined the atelier of...
K: ...of Desfossés.
F: Of Desfossés.
K: Mm?
F: Did they (already) paint?
K: Ah, they knew nothing (about it). Not even one of them, none of us. He himself did it, it was his strength. He showed...
F: ...then how did he choose (his students)?
K: The test was to paint. He said you are going to try. There is paper in the trash (you can use).
F: Mm.
K: And we had [in French] pistole paper. [39] Everyone had (to do) a drawing. Drawing was (a subject) in school and after some time you know how to draw. I, for instance, had done drawing in school with someone but our school was worthless.
F: Yes.
K: Alright then. (The order was) to draw they way you had done at school. You yourself just look for ideas you have in your head. Don’t ask me to show you something you don’t see. Look for it in you head. Draw whatever you like, make an effort[40] and that’s what you paint. When it looks good put it down. If isn’t good put it down and that’s what you keep doing all the time.
F: Mm.
K: That way we made progress. But there was no one who already knew (how to paint). [chuckles] No one. Only with Pire Marcel and with Moonens, they knew I had an aptitude, only they knew, those old timers.
F: Yes.
K: Yes.
F: And then [pauses] – alright, you say that Desfossés taught you[41], right?
K: He was the one who taught. He...
F: He taught them.
K: Mm.
F: He taught.
K: He was a person who knew...
F: ... but, how did he teach? What did he say, did he show a student (how to paint)?
K: [With emphasis] Not by showing.
F: No.
K: He acted like a person who had a school. He ran his school at Avenue Moëro.
F: Yes.
K: In this house that belonged to the Regie des Eaux. We were in this other small house[42], not in the multi-story building.
F: Mm.
K: It was when he declared that he was looking for youngsters or even adults who were looking for work. Among the applicants there were some who had no idea what kind of work drawing was. At the time we did not know that it was really work. So some (of us) went (there).
F: He himself, was he a painter?
K: A real painter. Desfossés did painting, bwana, that was really beautiful.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. He did all kinds (of painting), with brushes or fingers, like Bela.
F: Mm.
K: Desfossés knew all about that. Also portraits.
F: Mm.
K: He knew it, yes. He was an expert with portraits.
F: Mm.
K: So then he taught us, he gave us paper to learn (how to draw) with a pencil, and then he gave us paints. He would guide you, saying this part should be in color, that one should be white, and then it was finished. Don’t leave the background empty, that would be like leaving it naked, it must be decorated, it must be decent.
F: Mm.
K: Like that, yes. This is how it went on for some time and slowly people began to know (about this). Look at the things (people would say), ah, they look like a photograph although they were made by hand.
F: Mm.
K: People began to marvel, all over Lubumbashi. Ah, this old Frenchman, he is the one who teaches this kind of work. At that time many just ran away from that place, only a few of us stayed on. The few of us who remained...
F: Who ran away?
K: Oh, there were lots of students, forty of them.
F: Forty?
K: Ooh, we would not see each other, there were so many.
F: I see.
K: Yes. They all ran away. The ones who remained were few, together with this woman and she...
F: ... and the woman, what is her name?
K: Francisca.
F: Francisca?
K: Yes, that was the name but her other name I didn’t know.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. And then she also left. She left there. I was already gone when this woman left.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. And that (school) is what we live up to this day. That project of a school was good.
F: Mm.
K: And when others started  this Académie (it was an example) that should be followed.
F: Mm.
K: This work never ends, even after all those years.
F: Mm.
K: So much about that.
22. F: sasa: una: unawaza kama: sawa hii: sawa shee tunaona kama kila muntu: alikuwa na: namna yake ya kupenta/
K: ya kupenta ndiyo/
F: n’est-ce pas?
K: ndiyo/
F: na: [pauses] namna gani? juu ya nini?
K: njo muzuri pale/ inafaa kila muntu anaachana/ style yake/
F: inafaa?
K: inafaa ndiyo/ maneno njo kwa kuuzisha muzuri/ hapana kufanya bintu anafanya mwenzake na wee unafanya: hapana/ na tangu ku nyumba ao ni nyama ni moya: alafu: kuacha ku fond : préparer: kutumika mufano ingine/
F: mu fond?
K: ah ndiyo/ fond inaachana/
F: juu ya kuuzisha?
K: ya kuuzisha ndiyo/ maneno: kama inakuwa namna moya: hauwezi kuuza kintu inaisha kuuuza nauza hivi/ hawezi kuuza/ atauzia fond: atauzia ile bintu unaweka: inafaa kuachanisha mukono ya muntu ingine ile ingine/
F: kumbe style njo nini?
K: style sawa sawa nyama hivi/
F: mm/
K: unatumika nyama: kukuya unatumika nyama ya ...?...
F: [overlapping]...naangaria hii: hii penti ya: ya: nani: ya Kanyemba/
K: Kanyemba/ muzuri/
F: mm/
K: iko style yake ya yee paka vile/
F: mm/
K: kwiko Mwila/ njo alikamata ule Mwila alifundishaka mingi/
F: Mwila?
K: eeh/ njo kule alifunda yee/ Kanyemba/
F: Mwila alimu: alikufu: alikufundisha mwee?
K: minafundisha Mwila/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo mais...
F: wee uko nafundisha Mwila?
K: mi njo nilifundisha Mwila/
F: aaah/
K: eheh/ maneno mu alikuwa yake menusier/ iko menusier/
F: mm/
K: njo pale anatoka pa kazi asema:
F: menusier/
K: ...?... ndiyo/ mi niko natumika asema kama minatoka ku hii kazi:
F: mm/
K: tunatumika tableau ya bankanga: [coughs] yee anasemaka asema oh oh iko muzuri: ku mukono? minasema eheh/ kama natumika na Pire Marcel/ sawa kama mi kazi hapana: minasema bon: utatumika na mi sawa vile banafanya benzake bale/
F: oui/
K: eh ndiyo iko nafanya nafanya: iko mu: iko muntu wa akili sana/ kufika na:
F: na:
K: Mwila/
F: Mwila/
K: oooh/
F: sasa iko wapi?
K: iko ku Misoshi/
F: Misoshi?
K: ndiyo/ alikuwa mu Lubumbashi: sasa iko mu Misoshi/
F: Misoshi/
K: ndiyo/ anatumika paka hivi/ [coughs] ni style yangu...
F: fasi: fasi ya: ya Japonais?
K: [coughs] ya Japonais ndiyo/ balimuita kule anatumika buchauffeur sasa/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/ njo: njo alikuwa na: njo style yake ile/ njo alimufundisha Kanyemba/
F: mm/
K: eheh/ paka hivi: kama unaona: utasema ni Mwila/ ni pale comme ça: Mwila anakuya/
F: yee/
K: asema hapana/ unaangaria Kanyemba/ Kanyemba anatumika muzuri sana/
22. F: What do you think about this: we observe that every (painter) had his way of painting.
K: Of painting, yes.
F: Right?
K: Yes.
F: And [pauses]How (are they different)? What (makes the difference)?
K: This is a good point. Everyone must be different with regard to his style.
F: Must he?
K: He must, yes. Because if you want to sell well you must not make the things that your colleague makes. Houses or animals may be the same but that leaves the background to prepare and work out in a distinctive way.
F: The background?
K Ah, yes. The background is different.
F: So (the painting) will sell?
K: To sell, yes. Because if paintings are the same you are not going to buy another one of the same kind you already bought, no way. A person will buy the background, the things you put in it. (A painting) must be made to look unlike some one else’s work (lit. hand).
F: So, what is style?
K: Style – take this animal.
F: Mm.
K: You work out the animal and it comes out as an animal of ...?...
F: [overlapping] ...when I look at this painting by Kanyemba.
K: Kanyemba, fine.
F: Mm.
K: It is in his style.
F: Mm.
K: There is Mwila in it. (Kanyemba) took a lot from what Mwila used to teach.
F: Mwila?
K: Yes. That is where Kanyemba learned it.
F: Did Mwila teach both of you?
K: I taught Mwila.
F: I see.
K: Yes, but...
F: You taught Mwila?
K: I was the one who taught Mwila.
F: Ahah.
K: Yes. Because he was a carpenter by trade. He was a carpenter.
F: Mm.
K: So when he gave up his job...
F: As a carpenter.
K: ...?..., yes. I was working (as a painter) and he said, when I leave this job...
F: Mm.
K: I worked on a picture of guinea fowl (at the time). [coughs] He kept saying, oh, this is beautiful, (you do this) with your hands? I said, yes. That was when I worked with Pire Marcel. So, (he said, I could do this) when I am out of a job. I said fine, you are going to work with me like those other (students of mine).
F: Yes.
K: Well, he kept on painting, he was a very talented. To come (back) to...
F: To...
K: Mwila.
F: Mwila.
K: Ooh ( I could tell you a lot about him).
F: Where is he now?
K: He is in Misoshi.
F: Misoshi?
K: Yes, he used to live in Lubumbashi, now he is in Misoshi.
F: Misoshi.
K: Yes. The way he paints, [coughs] it’s my style.
F: That’s the place where the Japanese are?
K: [coughs] The Japanese place, yes. He was called to go there, now he works as a driver.
F: I see.
K: Yes. He had his style, which he taught to Kanyemba.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. It’s just the same. When you see it you’ll say, this is a Mwila. It is as if Mwila would be there.
F: He.
K: But no, you are looking at a Kanyemba. Kanyemba’s painting is really beautiful.
23. F: oui ah: [goes to pick up painting] nitakamata hii yako/
K: ndiyo/
F: ah: ongoye: ongoye/
K: ah/
F: nitakamata hii/ tutaangarie kwanza nini? sawa ni: ya: [pauses]
K: ile: mm/
F: ile ni ya: sawa: inafanana zaidi na hii niliona ku: ku: nyumba yake ya: Lumuna/
K: kwa Lumuna Gérard?
F: ah/
K: njo ile: njo ya miye/
F: mm/
K: sasa ile mu na: njo minafanya: alafu huku chini: naweka na: [moves to painting] ile décoration yangu nafanyaka/ huku/
F: oui oui/
K: eh: hivi/ iko pamoya paka vile/
F: oui oui/
K: ndiyo/ anafwataka paka vile vile sawa ya Lumuna/ yee style yangu: paka yote na ku Lubumbashi: paka hivi habasahuake/
F: ni hii: ni hii style ulifanyaka zamani?
K: ni: ni ya zamani: ku kwanza kazi...
F: ...hata ya ku: Desfossés?
K: nakuwa Desfossés/
F: na hii mandeke na hii yote?
K: [overlapping] na hii: hii mandeke yangu mweupe/
F: mm/
K: na basamaki yangu: na bandeke mweupe: na bankanga/
F: nkanga no: nkanga njo nini? nkanga:
K: petin: petan: pe: petan: petinte: pintante/
F: pintade/
K: pintade oui/
F: pintade/
K: ndiyo/
F: ndeke ingine/
K: ndiyo/ na mi/ na sasa:
F: mm/
K: hata ku baPère Pascal unakutana ile: iko kule na sasa hapa iko/
F: hii ndeke: njo nini? ni:
K: hii ndeke? ni ndeke ya ku mayi/ mweupe/ inafwataka sawa pique-boeuf mweupe ile/
F: mm/
K: na huyu ni ndeke ingine/
F: jina yake ni nini?
K: sasa kwetu: tunakutana asema: tunakutana asema: chizoza/
F: chizoza/
K: chizoza ah/
F: mm/
K: eheh/
F: njo mu: kaNdembu?
K: mu: mu kaNdembu ndiyo/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/ shiku yee asema choza: shiku anasema chizoza: shiku anasema choza/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/ njo ile bandeke yee/ njo kama wa: wakutana hivi: njo kusema ile mutoni iko samaki mingi/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/ unaona bantu asema aah: ile mutoni iko samaki mingi: banakwenda kuyenga ile fashi/
F: eyo/
K: eeh/
F: oui/
K: ndiyo/
23. F: Yes. Now [goes to pick up a painting] I am going to take up this painting of yours.
K: Yes.
F: Wait, wait.
K: Ah.
F: Let me pick it up. What shall we look at first? It looks like... [pauses]
K: That one, mm.
F: It looks a lot like the one in Lumuna’s house.
K: At Lumuna Gérard’s? [43]
F: Yes.
K: That is one of mine.
F: Mm.
K: Now, what I did on this one, here on the bottom I put [moves to painting] the decoration I usually do. Here.
F: Yes, yes.
K: Yes, like that. Similar to (the one on Lumuna’s).
F: Yes, yes.
K: Yes. The pattern is the same as in (the painting owned) by Lumuna. This is my style, that of all the paintings in Lubumbashi. People have not forgotten (what it looks like).
F: Is it the style you used to do in the old days?
K: It is the old style. from the time when I began with this work...
F: Already (when you worked) at Desfossés’?
K: When I was with Desfossés.
F: With those birds and everything?
K: [overlapping] With those white birds of mine.
F: Mm.
K: And my fish, white birds, and nkanga.
F: Nkanga, what are they? Nkanga.
K: Petin, petan, petinte, pintante.
F: Pintade (guinea fowl).
K: Pintade, yes.
F: Pintade.
F: Another kind of bird.
K: Yes, one I do, even nowadays.
F: Mm.
K: Even at Père Pascal’s place you find it, it’s still there now.
F: This (other) bird, what is it? Is it...
K: That bird? It’s water fowl, it’s white, looking like that white pique-boeuf.[44]
F: Mm.
K: And this one is another bird.
F: What is it’s name?
K: Now, at home, when we come across (this bird) we call it chizoza.
F: Chizoza.
K: Chizoza, yes.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: Is this in Ndembu?
K: In Ndembu, yes.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. One day it is called choza, another day chizoza, then again choza.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. When one comes across those birds it means that there is a lot of fish in this river.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. You see people saying ah, in this river there is a lot of fish, and then they settle in this place.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: Yes.
K: Yes.
24. F: kumbe: sawa tunaona hii: hii peinture:
K: ndiyo/
F: ts/ [pauses] unaanza namna gani?
K: ile? ile penti tunaanza?
F: oui/ ni kusema: unaanza kutumika wee: kut: kutumika tu: ao uko: kwanza unawaza?
K: hapana/ hii penti: ni kuwaza mbele/
F: kuwaza mbele/
K: ndiyo/ iko na siku mingi ile/ kutumika? tumika mbele mayi: na ile mawingu: kuacha/
F: aah/
K: eh: ndiyo/ kuacha inakauka nguvu/ ilikuwa mule mu nyumba si ulikwenda...
F: ...huyu ni sasa?
K: zamani...
F: pasipo: pasipo ndeke/
K: hapana/ paka hivi eeh/ njo: njo na style yangu/ pale itakauka: njo kutafuta akili ya mayi: unaweka tena samaki: iko peupe: samaki hivi/ inaisha/ après njo kuingiza samaki mu mayi/
F: mm/
K: kama inakauka/ unaweka samaki mu mayi: unaweka ndeke: njo kudécorer tableaux inyewe/ njo...
F: décorer: njo nini?
K: kudécorer: hii fond: [moves away from micro to show] hii fond hii: isibakie: iko: iko bunji kwa mi/
F: hii: donc: fond: ni kudécorer?
K: fond inataka kudécorer/
F: ah bon/
K: njo ...?... [still away from micro]
F: na sujet?
K: na sujet/ ndiyo/ sawa vile kudécorer: iko muzuri/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/ njo ile/
F: ah bon/
K: maneno kila kintu yote tunaf: tumika: paka na mambo yake na sujet/ na tunaitika su...
24. F: So, we see this painting here.
K: Yes.
F: Well, [pauses] how do you begin?
K: This one? How we begin this painting?
F: Yes. Do you just start working or do you think first?
K: No (I don’t just start working). With this kind of painting it is thinking first.
F: Thinking first.
K: Yes. This takes many days. (How do I) work? First I paint the water and the clouds, then I leave it.
F: Ah.
K: Well yes, let it get real dry. There were (paintings drying) in the house. You went there, right?
F: ...is this one is recent?
K: (No) is is old...
F: (I’m asking) because it has no birds.
K: No, it’s just the same, it’s my style. Once (a painting) has dried I put my mind to the water. You put the fish there, (the water) is transparent[45], and that’s it. After that it is putting the fish into the water.
F: Mm.
K: When the painting has dried you put the fish in the water and you add the birds. Then is decorating the painting as such. That is...
F: Decorate, what is that?
K: To decorate. This background [moves away from micro to show] this background should not stay (as it is now), to me it looks naked.
F: So, the background should be decorated?
K: The background calls for decorating.
F: Ah, all right.
K: It is ...?...[still away from micro]
F: And the theme?
K: And the theme, yes. To decorate (a painting) like that (makes it) beautiful.
F: I see.
K: Yes, that’s it.
F: I see.
K: Because whatever we paint is about something, it has its subject. And we pay attention to the subject... [46]
25. F: ...?... na mu: unachagula: uko na mapenti: na mapenti tube/
K: yote paka na tube/
F: bon/
K: mi sina ya: solution hapana/ sina ya bule/
F: ah bon/
K: yote minafanya paka na tube/
F: hii: hii Mamba Muntu banafanyaka na solution?
K: aah ile hapana/ [chuckles] ile ya penti ya bule: ordinaire/
F: penti ya bule ordinaire?
K: ndiyo/ Mamba Muntu ya solution: haina muzuri/
F: non: njo kumbe wanafanyaka: ni penti sawa bana: banauzishaka:
K: aah: mi penti nauzisha bote ya:
F: oui oui/
K: ndiyo/ sawa hivi/ [moves away to point to a painting] sawa hivi: hapana kuweka tube: hii: kama unaweka tube: haitatenir muzuri/
F: non?
K: ah ...?... mm/
F: aliweka tube?
K: hapana/ mm/ aliweka hapana/ ...?...
F: paka penti?
K: eeh ndiyo/
F: kumbe Kanyemba: ah: oui...
K: iko penti muzuri yake/
F: oui oui/
K: ile aliweka humu/ yote iko muzuri/
F: sasa...
K: ...?... penti yee mubaya: iko penti muzuri/
F: mara ingine tunaweka paka penti bule:
K: eheh/
F: moya moya?
K: ndiyo/
F: na mara ingine: tunaweka: kama inachangana?
K: kwa kuchanga?
F: mm/
K: aaah/
F: unachanga penti?
K: ndiyo: aaah: penti paka kuchanga/ kwa moya moya [chuckles] hautatumika hapana/
F: non?
K: hautatumika [chuckles] hapana/ maneno tuko na nani ile: unachanga hii na hii/
F: uko na pallette?
K: na parette ndiyo niko naye/
F: pallette:
K: ndiyo/ sasa unakamata na huile de lin/
F: mm/
K: njo kutumika naye: njo penti ibakie/
F: hui: huile de lin?
K: huile de lin/ oui/
F: oui c’est ça/
K: njo niko nayo: njo kutumika nayo/ kama bule: ah: haina peinture hapana/
F: mm/
K: iko ya yote complet: huile de lin:
F: sasa unachanga: una: una:
K: blanc de zinc: yote/
F: oui oui oui: mais: unachanga ma: marangi?
K: marangi: una: una: ile rangi inataka ile kintu/
F: mm/
K: unakamata hii na hii: unachanga/ sasa ile unaona: kuchanga hii na hii: unachanga pamoya: njo ka: pa pallette: njo kutumika sasa/ eeh/ maneno kama: unasema paka hii unaweka: ah: [chuckles] utatumika namna gani/
F: c’est ça/
K: ah: eyo bwana/ iko matata kabisa/ hauwezi kutumika muzuri/ ndiyo/ hata ile banyama bale: unaona?
F: oui/
K: paka en tube/ ile ya solution/
F: en tube/
K: ah ndiyo/ maneno mi sizobelee hii ya penti ya bule kutumika naye: siwezi: sijue hapana/ iko inatelemuka:
F: mm/
K: na couleur inatembea: kuwezi hapana/
F: hapana/
K: na hii ya solution: njo minazobelea naye: na hata na kisu: hata na pinceau: yote/
F: pinceau na kisu:
K: ndiyo/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
25. F: ...?.... about the paints you choose – you (work with) tube paints.
K: Everything (is done) only with tube paints.
F: Alright.
K: I don’t use soluble paint, no worthless stuff.
F: I see.
K: I do everything with tube paint.
F: So those Mamba Muntu paintings are done with soluble paint.
K: Ah, no (they don’t use tube paint) for t those. [chuckles] Those are done with worthless, ordinary paint.
F: Worthless ordinary paint?
K: Yes. A Mamba Muntu in soluble paint, that doesn’t look nice.
F: No. So, what they are done with is something like commercial paint.
K: Well, the paintings I sell are all done (in tube paint).
F: Yes, yes.
K: Yes. Take this one [moves away to point to a painting], like this one, you don’t use tube paint. If you use tube paint it won’t stay on well.
F: No?
K: Ah...?... [still away from micro: noise of rubbing.scratching] Mm.
F: Did he use tube paint?
K: No. Mm. He didn’t.
F: Just paint.
K: Yes.
F: So, Kanyemba – ah, yes.
K: He uses quality paint.
F: Yes, yes.
K: The one he put here, everything is quality (paint).
F: Now...
K: ,,, you won’t find him using bad paint. This is quality paint.
F: Does one use ordinary paint...
K: Yes.
F: ...(at least) now and then?
K: Yes.
F: And sometimes one mixes (the paint)?
K: (You are talking) about mixing?
F: Mm.
K: I don’t know about that.
F: Do you mix paints?
K: Yes. Ah, now I understand, this is about mixing paints. You are not going to work keeping paints separate.[chuckles]
F: No?
K: You are not going to work (like that). [chuckles] Because (the way we work) you mix one (paint) with another.
F: Do you have a palette?
K: Yes, I have a palette.
F: A palette.
K: Yes. Then you take linseed oil.
F: Mm.
K: That’s what you work with so the paint stays on.
F: Linseed oil?
K: Linseed oil, yes.
F: Yes, that’s it.
K: I have it, that’s what I work with. Without it, well, that wouldn’t be painting.
F: Mm.
K: Everything is there, linseed oil...
F: Then you mix it with,,,
K: ...with zinc white, everything.
F: Yes, yes. Yes. But do you mix colors?
K: You need (different) colors for this.
F: Mm.
K: You take this one and that one and you mix them. Mixing one with the other, when you combine them, you see (the result) on the palette and then you paint. Yes. If you were to use only one, ah [chuckles] how are you going to paint?
F: That’s it.
K: Ah yes, bwana. It would be a lot of trouble. you couldn’t paint well. Yes. Even those animals there, you see them?
F: Yes.
K: (They are done) only in tube paint, (I don’t use) the one that is soluble.
F: (You use) tube paint.
K: Ah, yes. Because I am not used to this ordinary paint, I can’t work with it. It keeps running.
F: Mm.
K: And the colors are all over the place, it’s impossible.
F: No.
K: I am used to this soluble paint, no matter (whether I work) with a knife or a brush, everything.
F: Brush and knife.
K: Yes.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
26. F: na: ah: bon/ kumbe njo: njo namna yako ya/ sasa hii style yako:
K: ndiyo/
F: zaidi zaidi ni nini? sawa: tuliona kama: Bela anafanya na: na nani: na:
K: na bilole/
F: na bilole:
K: ndiyo/
F: kama: Pililipili zamani alifanya...
K: ...matâches/
F: ...petit point:
K: na petit point/
F: ha?
K: na pinceau/
F: sasa anafanya: oui pinceau:
K: ndiyo/
F: na Mwenze anafanyaka sawa: inaonekana sawa kitunga ah? sawa:
K: sawa: aah: sawa kitunga: ndiyo: ya Mwenze: sawa kitunga: sawa nyoka/
F: mm?
K: ndiyo/
F: sasa hii style yako:
K: miye na pinceau: nafanya paka feuillage: na ile unaona sawa kuweka: [moves to painting to show] haina ya ...?... hapana: na: na miti/ mi style yangu minakuwa kufanya: minaachia ndeke/ njo style ya mi/ minaacha: ya ...?...
F: hii wa le: o: ni: alian: uliacha hii:
K: minaacha ya yee: Mwila/
F: ah bon/
K: paka: minaacha: mi style ya ...?... minakamata penti: fond ya...?...
F: ...kumbe: zamani: ulikuwa na style yako sawa vile inaonekana mu: mu tableaux ya Kanyemba?
K: ah ndiyo: zamani/
F: kumbe uliacha hii style?
K: hapana: ile sikufanya siku mingi: niliaméliorer: et puis minakamata style yangu ni hii/
F: ah bon/ uliacha na élèves?
K: maneno hapana kufanya style moya: iko mubaya/
F: ha: hawezi: ...?...
K: [overlapping]...?...
F: ...kama: kama: kama moya ni muna:
K: ndiyo: hainakuwaka pamoya/ yee alafu yafaa ku: kuacha kiloko/
F: inafaa kuacha?
K: ndiyo/
F: inafaa kila muntu:
K: na: na kintu yake/
F: hakuwe na a: a:
K: ndiyo/
F: na: ah bon/
K: na: samaki: nyama: shee tuko tunafanya namna moya/ paka ile malignes: inafaa kuachia: njo de: njo décoration yake/
F: eyo/
K: ndiyo/
F: eyo/
K: mm/
F: na: [pauses] bon/ njo style/
K: ndiyo/ minabakia: alafu ile ya basamaki: kuanza kwa Desfossés: na bandeke mwaka yote na banyama: njo bale na samaki/
26. F: Alright then. So this is the way (you paint). Now, about your style.
K: Yes.
F: What makes it really special? For instance, we have seen Bela painting with...
K: ...with his fingers.
F: With his fingers.
K: Yes.
F: And how Pilipili used to paint...
K: ...spots.
F: ...(he called it) petit point.
K: Petit point.
F: Right?
K: (Done with) a brush.
F: He still does this -- yes, a brush.
K: Yes.
F: And Mwenze does something that looks like basket weave, right? Like...
K: ...yes, like basket weave. Yes, that’s Mwenze’s (style), like basket weave, like (entwined) snakes.
F: Mm?
K: Yes.
F: Now about your style.
K: I do the foliage with a brush and what you see [moves to painting to show] ...?....  In the style I now work in I leave out the birds. That’s my style. I no longer do...?...
F: In the paintings you are doing nowadays you no longer...
K: I no longer do them in Mwila’s style.
F: Ah bon.
K: I don’t do this anymore. My style ...?... I take the paint, the background...?...[47]
F: ... so then, earlier you had a style like the one the one in Kanyemba’s paintings?
K: Ah yes, in the past.
F: So now you dropped that style?
K: No, I did not do it for long, I improved it and then I adopted my style, which is this one.
F: I see. You left it for (your) students?
K: Because it is no god to paint in the same style, that’s bad.
F: Is it not possible...?...
K: [overlapping]...?...
F: If you (work) in one (and the same style)...
K: Yes, it wasn’t (exactly) the same but one had to leave out a little bit.
F: You have to leave (something) out?
K: Yes.
F: Everyone must....
K: ...have his own thing.
F: He shouldn’t have ...
K: No.
F: And, ah,I see.
K: The fish and antelopes we do the same but not lines, they should be disregarded[48], they are his (kind of) decoration.
F: I see.
K: Mm.
F: And [pauses], alright, so much about style.
K: Yes. I stick to it. But putting in fish that started with Desfossés, and also the birds and all, antelopes and fish – (this was done) all those years.
27. F: sasa kumbe: sawa vile ulisema: mwanzo: mbele ya: ya kuweka mu:
K: mbele mayi/ na mawingu/
F: oui/
K: unaacha na hii: inakamata hata yenga moya: hapana ...?... hata yenga moya na kipande/
F: mm/
K: maneno ya tube ikawe....?...
F: ...non: mina: minasema: mbele: mbele zaidi: inaonekana mu mawazo? ya:
K: hii: ya mawazo tu bule/ [chuckles]
F: unafanya: unafanya: mu mwanzo unfanya: dessin?
K: ndiyo/ kwanza tu mawazo: hapana kintu ya kuona/ iko imaginé/
F: mu: mu hii toile mweupe?
K: mu toile mweupe eh/
F: unafanyaka dessin na crayon? non/
K: hapana/ ku tangu mi si: fanyaka dessin na crayon/
F: paka bule/
K: paka bule hivi/ hata yote minafanya: paka bule/ ile/ sifanyaka na crayon hapana/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/ ah minafanyaka na crayon hapana/
F: hapana?
K: ndiyo/ iko mubaya/
F: eyo/
K: ah shee paka: maneno mara ingine inaonekaka/ shee paka na pinceau inyewe/
F: mm/
K: eh njo ya kwanza ya kazi/ eeh: zamani tunakuwa narefuser: sasa hii hapana: paka na pinceau inyewe naweka penti kiloko noir: njo kufanya naye na sujet: njo kutumika/ hapana kwanza na crayon/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
27. F: So, as you said, first, before you put them,,,
K: First comes the water, and the clouds.
F: Yes.
K: You leave it that, it takes as much as a week (to dry), no ...?...  even a week and a half.
F: Mm.
K: Because tube paint should wait...?...
F: No (that’s not what I mean). I talked about what comes before anything else, is it something that appears in your thoughts?
K: It is comes from thoughts only. [chuckles]
F: When you begin (painting) do you first draw a sketch on...
K: Yes. In the beginning it’s only thoughts, not a thing you can see. It’s [in French] imagined.
F: ... the blank canvass?
K: On the blank canvass, yes.
F: Do you draw the sketch with a pencil? Non.
K: No. I never drew sketches with a pencil.
F: (Beginning) just with the empty (canvass).
K: Just the empty canvass, Everything I do (starts with an) empty canvass. I don’t draw with a pencil.
F: Ah, alright.
K: Yes. Ah, I don’t work with a pencil.
F: No?
K: No, that’s bad.
F: I see.
K: Ah, because sometimes the (pencil drawing) shows through. We only work with the brush.
F: Mm.
K: Yes, that’s how the work starts. Yes, I refused (to work with a pencil) long ago and I don’t do it now. Using only the brush I put down a little black paint to outline the subject and then I paint, without starting with a pencil.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
28. F: na [pauses] niko na ulizo ingine:
K: ndiyo/
F: ni sawa: unaona: kazi yake ya: [noises of putting away paintings] kazi yake ya: ya: ya artiste:
K: ndiyo/
F: sawa unaona: wee uko artiste/
K: ndiyo/
F: si vile?
K: ndiyo/
F: kazi yake ya artiste njo: zaidi zaidi njo nini?
K: ya artiste zaidi zaidi?
F: zaidi: ni kusema: [pauses]
K: ndiyo/ unasema muzuri/
F: uli: ulisikia?
K: ya kweli/ ndiyo/ ah minasikia...
F: ya kweli?
K: mm/ kazi ya artiste ya kweli: maneno baartistes: beko sawa bantu wa masikini/
F: bantu wa masikini?
K: ni kweli bwana/ [chuckles] maneno Makuta utapata mara moya: ah: anapata: na hata millions de Francs/ ah: yee: pale ile wakati anisikia muzuri: anasema mitapata: siku ingine ao: hakuna: bwana utapata hapana/ utatumika mwaka na mwaka hivi: utatumika unakwenda unapata deux Makuta: unapata ngapi: wee unaikala hapana maneno/ alafu maélèves iko kizuri mu nyumba/
F: mm/
K: maneno pale unakwendaka hakuonake hapana/ maneno maélèves yangu mingi iko mu nyumba fulani/
F: oui/
K: biko mingi minaweka: naweka: hapana maneno/
F: élèves banaikala mu nyumba: mu nyumba yako?
K: hapana: ma: matableaux/
F: matableaux?
K: ndiyo/
F: oui/
K: ndiyo/ natumika naweka: natumika naweka:
F: oui/
K: natumika/ maneno hajue kazi yetu banaandika artiste: hana: hana: commerçant: hana namna gani/ hana: iko masikini/ paka siku utapata client: ao utapata chance pa kwenda ...?...unauzisha ile wakati: unasikia na nguvu: bale u: artiste anaukwa na nguvu/ njo kusema bazungu asema wee uko artiste uko na batoto tano/ unabalisha ni nini? minasema bwana iko tu matata kabisa/
F: mm/
K: basi mi ni artiste na mwanamuke njo alizala watoto: mi [claps] sitaweza kufanya kintu/
F: uli: ulioa bibi ya kabila yako?
K: ndiyo bwana/ ndiyo/
F: sasa ulizalaliwa...
K: nazala naye watoto/ sasa tano/
F: tano?
K: ndiyo/ ndiyo/ moya huyu twiko naye pale/
F: ni hii/
K: ndiyo bwana/
F: na bali: balimupata? balikufwata?
K: balinifwata ndiyo/
F: aha/
K: ndiyo/ moya ule: njo: premier iko mu Lubumbashi/ deuxième huyu/
F: ahah/
K: na ingine kiloko: na vile vile tena: ndiyo/
28. F: And [pauses] I have another question.
K: Yes.
F: If you consider the work [noises of putting away paintings] of an artist.
K: Yes.
F: You consider yourself an artist.
K: Yes.
F: Right?
K: Yes.
F: What is the essence of an artist’s work?
K: (The essence) of an artist’s work?
F: The essence, that is to say [pauses]...
K: Yes, you put this nicely.
F: Did you understand?
K: (What it is) truly,yes. Ah, I understand.
F: Truly?
K: Mm. The truth about an artist’s work – artists are like the poor.
F: Like the poor.
K: It’s the truth, bwana. [chuckles] Because the money you get -- it can happen that (an artists) makes millions of Francs. Ah, at that moment he feels great, telling himself, I am going to make (money). Then again this does not happen, bwana, you are not going to make (money). You work year after year like that. You work and go around (trying to sell you paintings) and all you get is two Makuta, you get (I don’t know) how much, but you keep going, its doesn’t matter. But having students is a blessing at home.
F: Mm.
K: If you were to look for them you wouldn’t see them because many of my students live somewhere else.
F: Yes.
K: There are many I put (onto painting) but I don’t mind.[49]
F: Are there students who stay in the house, in your house?
K: No, only (their) paintings.
F: (Their) paintings.
K: Yes.
F: Yes.
K: Yes, I work and put it away, I work and put it away.
F: Yes.
K: I work. Because those who write about  our work don’t know it. An artist is not a businessman or whatever. He is poor. Only when you find a customer or get a chance to go ...?...and you sell (your paintings) you feel strong. That’s when an artist is strong. When Europeans tell me, you are an artist and you have five children, how do you feed them? My answer is, bwana, it’s a lot of trouble.
F: Mm.
F: I am an artist with a woman who gave birth to my children, [claps] I can’t do anything about it.
F: Did you marry a woman of your ethnic group?
K: Yes, bwana, yes.
F: Now you had[50]....
K: I had children with her, five by now.
F: Five?
K: Yes. Yes. One of them lives with us there.
F: He is the one.
K: Yes, bwana.
F: And did they take after you?
K: They took after me, yes.
F: I see.
K: Yes, The one who was born first is in Lubumbashi. This here is the second one.[51]
F: I see.
K: And the next one is still small like the rest, yes.
29. F: na: bon/ kumbe kazi ya artiste inaachana ya ka: ya makazi ingine?
K: ah inaachana makazi ingine mbali na mbali/ na hata kote qui est...
F: paka ku umasikini ao...
K: ...paka mu...
F: ... namna ingine?
K: ooh: baartistes beko masikini/
F: oui mais: alafu inaachana na namna ingine tena?
K: ah inaachana mbali na mbali/ na ku mastyles inaachana/ inafaa kuachanisha/
F: mm/
K: njo muzuri: njo wa kuuzisha/ sasa wee utafanya namna moya: [claps] utaweza namna gani? hautaweza kuuza hapana/ njo vile inafaa kuachanisha/ njo: amana ya hii kazi/
F: sasa artiste kama anata: anaanza kutumika:
K: ndiyo/
F: [pauses] aah: atafunda tena?
K: ndiyo/
F: kama anapata style yake:
K: ah/
F: atafunda tena?
K: kama a: anapata style yake inamuingia?
F: oui/
K: hataweza kufunda tena hapana/
F: non/
K: atafunda/ maneno kazi ya artiste haishake/ wee unakwenda pori: unaona kintu: unaweka mu kichwa: unakuwa kuisahabu: unaanza kuimaginer: unaanza kutumika /
F: mm/
K: haishake hapana bwana/ wee aah kazi ya shee: paka hivi? haishake hapana/
F: mm/
K: ku bale ...?... asema inaisha: anaisha kujua kazi ya artiste iko naisha bale: habana/
F: mm/
K: bado kuyua: iko inakwenda tu/ akili ikingale iko inakuya/ ndiyo/ bintu bingine ikingali/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/ angaria kwa Desfossés: tujua paka ndeke: samaki: eeh: bintu ingine: sawa unakwenda kwa Monsieur: Pire Marcel: unafanya bintu bingine/
29. F: Alright. So, the artist’s work is different compared to other kinds of work?
K: Ah, there is a great difference compared to other kinds of work. Even regarding everything that is...
F: Only in regard to poverty...
K: ...only in...
F: ...or in other respects?
K: Ooh, artists are poor.
F: Yes, but is there a difference in other respects?
K: Ah, there is a great difference. There is a difference with regard to style. You have to change it.
F: Mm.
K: That is something that is good, it is about selling. When you keep working in the same way, [claps] how are you going to succeed? You won’t be able to sell,[52] therefore one needs to introduce changes. That is what makes this kind of work secure.
F: Now, once an artist begins to work...
K: Yes.
F: [pauses] How shall I say? Will he continue to learn?
K: Yes.
F: If he has (found) his style.
K: Well.
F: Will he continue to learn?
K: If he found his style, one that pervades his work (lit. him)?
F: Yes.
K: Then he cannot go on learning.
F: No.
K: (Well), he’ll learn, because an artist’s work never ends. You go into the bush, you see something and put it in your head, you forget about it, and then you begin imagining it and you start working.
F: Mm.
K: It doesn’t end, bwana, it goes on and on. (You think) our work is like any other? It doesn’t end.
F: Mm.
K: There is no one who knows the artist’s work who would say it ends.
F: Mm.
K: One may know something and then it is gone. If the mind still functions (the thing) will come to you. Yes. Some things just stay.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. Look, at Desfossés’ we knew how to do birds, fish, and other things. When you went to Monsieur Marcel Pire you would something else.
30. F: Desfossés kama aliona: ...?... moya:
K: ndiyo/
F: a: ali: alicritiquer? alisema: eh: hii ni mubaya: hii ni muzuri?
K: ndiyo/ alicritiquer/
F: sasa uko na muntu: uko na muntu ya: kukucritiquer? hapana/
K: ah uko: a: bo habajue hapana/ [chuckles]
F: habajue/
K: ndiyo/ maneno...
F: ni muzuri ao ni mubaya?
K: yee professeur: yee alikuwa naona/ hapana/ kucritiquer iko muzuri/
F: muzuri/
K: maneno: njo kujua akili/ njo mu art: njo artistes banatakana/ ndiyo/
F: kumbe unafw: unafwata: unatafuta...
K: ...ndiyo/
F: critique ya...
K: ...ndiyo/ kutafuta/
F: kupata:
K: kupata hapana/ kama: paka unapata ile style: banauza: banaona iko muzuri: iko muzuri/ kuko yee anataka style lisse: propre: kuko ingine atake hii style ya lisse hapana: inataka tableau inakuwa doux/ njo tableau/
F: mm/
K: njo inauziwa muzuri/
F: mm/
K: maneno kama tableaux inaingala hivi: ah/ haiwezikane/ mastyles inapita: inaachana/ ndiyo/ njo vile/
30. F: When Desfossés noticed some ...?...
K: Yes.
F: Did he criticize it? Did he say this is bad and that is good?
K: Yes, He gave criticism.
F: Nowadays, do you have someone to criticize you? No.
K: Ah, they don’t know anything. [chuckles]
F: They don’t know.
K: No, because...
F:...whether it is this good or bad?
K: (Someone like) a professor would have an eye for that. No, it is good to express criticism.
F: Good.
K: Because it means that one recognizes intelligence. That is what artists want from each other. Yes.
F: So you follow, you seek...
K: ...yes.
F: ...criticism of...
K: ...yes, looking for it.
F: (And) getting it.
K: But not getting it. (What counts is that) you find your style and people buy (because) they consider (your work) beautiful, that’s good. Someone likes a style that is smooth, clean, another one may not like this smooth style, he wants a painting to be charming (lit. sweet).
F: Mm.
K: Then it sells well.
F: Mm.
K: Because if a painting is indifferent, ah, (selling it) would be impossible. There are so many different styles. Yes, that’s the way it is.
31. F: mutaendelea: una projet ya: ya: ya mu l’avenir? utaendelea: utachanger tena style yako?
K: hapana/ atans: kuchanger mitachanger kintu ya: nitachanger paka mu peinture/ maneno peinture inaachana/
F: uta: utageuza...
K: iko...
F: ...peinture: peinture kusema ni nini? ni: ni rangi?
K: eh langi/ maneno kwiko lanki en tube: kwiko langi ordinaire: iko nachanger tableau:
F: oui/
K: kwiko ya tube: tableau paka vingt-cinq ans haiweze kuchanger: iko muzuri: njo tunachanger vile/
F: huyu munachanger/ mais: style: yako...
K: [overlapping] ah style paka: style paka ya zamani/ style paka ya zamani/
F: unabakia naye?
K: eh/
[interlude]
F: unavuta cigarette?
K: ndiyo bwana/ merci/
F: una: futa léger?
K: [overlapping] léger/ ndiyo bwana/ aksanti bwana/
F: [sounds of looking for a match] acha kamate yee:
K: oh: merci bien/
F: na: [pauses] sawa vile: maélèves: yako:
K: ndiyo/
F: kila: moya na moya:
K: ndiyo/
F: atakamata style yake/
K: ndiyo kila style na: mbele mbele atafanya style pamoya/
F: [overlapping] na unaona sawa Kasongo: unaona sawa:
K: aah/ Kasongo:
F: aliisha ku: kupata style yake? aliisha kukomea sasa?
K: [overlapping] a: ali: aliisha kukomea sawa artiste/ alafu paysages yee bado kuyua/ anajua paka: sirènes/
F: sirènes?
K: ndiyo/
F: anapenta muzuri/
K: anafanya muzuri sana sirènes/ minafanya sirènes mi mwenyewe: hivi/ yee Kasongo anafanya muzuri/ maneno yee: anafanya...
F: [pointing to his painting of Mamba Muntu] wee ulificha maziba/ [laughs]
K: nilificha ndiyo bwana/ nilificha bwana maziba maneno...
F: ...juu ya:
K: iko wa hivi/
F: ulisikia haya?
K: hapana bwana/ maneno:
F: [laughs]
K: kwiko kuko ingine anaikala hivi/
F: ah bon/
K: eeh/ hii: dibwe inakuya hapa: eko naangaria kule à travers/
F: ahah/
K: pa mutoni: ndiyo/
F: c’est ça/
K: ndiyo/
F: c’est ça/
K: ndiyo/
31. F: Are you going to develop? Do you have a project for the future? By develop (I mean) are you going to change your style.
K: No. If I am going to change anything it will be the paint[53]. Because there are different kinds of paint.
F: You are going to change...
K: it is...
F: ...paint. what does that mean, is it color?
K: Yes, color. Because there is tube paint, ordinary paint, and (depending on what you use) the picture changes.
F: Yes.
K: (Done with) tube paint, a painting will not change in twenty-five years, it will still be good. So (it’s the paints) we change.
F: That is what you change. But your style...
K: [overlapping] Ah, the style, the style is just the old one. The style is just the old one.
F: You stick to it?
K: Yes.
[interlude]
F: You smoke a cigarette?
K: Yes, bwana, thank you.
F: Do you smoke the light ones?
K: [overlapping] Light, yes bwana. [sounds of looking for a match]
F: Wait, take this.
K: Oh, thanks very much.
F: And [pauses] about your students.
K: Yes.
F: One after the other, everyone of them...
K: Yes.
F: ...is going to take up his own style.
K: Yes, everyone (will have his) style (but) at first he will paint in a style that is the same (as mine).
F: [overlapping] When you observe Kasongo, for instance, do you notice...
K: Aah, Kasongo.
F: ...that he has found his style? Has he grown up now?
K: [overlapping] He has grown up as an artist, except he doesn’t know yet how to do landscapes, all he knows is mermaids
F: Mermaids?
K: Yes.
F: He paints beautifully.
K: The mermaids he does quite beautifully. I do mermaids like that myself (but) Kasongo, he does them beautifully because he does...
F: [pointing to his painting of Mamba Muntu] You concealed the breasts. [laughs]
K: I concealed them, yes bwana. I concealed them because...
F: ...because...
K: Just like that.
F: Did you feel shame?
K: No bwana, because...
F: [laughs]
K: There are other (painting) where she lying down like that (with her breasts showing).
F: I see. On this (painting) there is I a stone (hiding her breasts) and she is looking over it.
F: Ahah.
K: (She is resting) by a river, yes.
F: That’s it.
K: Yes.
F: That’s it.
K: Yes.
32. F: na [pauses; sound of striking a match] bon muzuri: na nazani njo yote: a: a: sijue ma: mara ingine uko na: na mawazo?
K: ndiyo/
F: una: unawaza kama: ah: kazi ya artiste: inapita kazi ingine?
K: nidyo/ kwa kazi ya artiste inapita kazi ingine kiloko/ hii banatumika/ na yo unafanya nguvu kama unatumika: utaweza kupona kiloko na kulya chakula muzuri inabakia/ ndiyo/ ile kwa ile ni kweli/ eheh/
F: ni: kumbe ni juu ya: ya: ya Makuta unapata? inapita ...?...? non/
K: ndi: hapana/
F: sawa ulisema: ulisema si u: ss: si ulisema: artiste ni mu: ni maskini?
K: ni masikini? ndiyo/ artiste ni masikini/
F: alafu:
K: na vile vile iko muzuri/
F: na hii namna gani?
K: iko muzuri/ na yee...
F: kuwa maskini ya:
K: ndiyo/
F: iko muzuri namna gani?
K: hapana/ maneno: kazi inyewe njo ku: banajua tu bote banajua asema artiste iko masikini:
F: mm/
K: alafu yee mwenyewe ndani yake masikini anajua: tuko tunabakia mu kiloko kiloko muzuri/ ndiyo/ njo mu kazi ya artiste hivi/ iko kazi moya muzuri: alafu masikini: wote anajua hivi: maneno Makuta yake ni kupata par: ah: mwaka hata: pale minabalula mais: mwezi hapana/ hawatakulipa hakuna: [chuckles] hakuna/
F: na bantu bengine banaangaria artiste namna gani?
K: bantu bengine banapenda kazi ya ar: sasa banapenda kazi ya artiste/ sasa pa kujua kazi ya artiste inakuwa matata/ njo bamingi/
F: inakuwa matata?
K: ah inakuwa matata bwana/ maneno...
F: [overlapping]...?... zamani ilikuwa matata?
K: zamani ilikuwa: bo: bilikuwa banakatala kazi/ ya artiste/
F: mm/
K: sasa sasa bo banapenda kazi yake ya artiste: kazi ya artiste inakuwa matata/
F: alafu banaona namna gani? pa: mu mawazo yabo: banaona namna gani: artiste:
K: eheh...
F: ...banawaza nini juu ya artiste?
K: eh/ banawaza artiste sasa: maneno zamani balikuwa najua asema artiste ni kintu gani?
F: mm/
K: sasa pale banasema: beko nasema: hata bengine banasema: kwiko artiste-peintre puisque peut-être: bale ni bantu/ ba hivi na hivi/
F: oui/
K: mm/ sasa bo pale: bengine banataka kuingia mu ile kazi/
F: mm/
K: kwa kujua buartiste hiki: sasa: kazi ya artiste hiki inakuwa matata kwa kufunda/
atafanya tu yenga moya: mwezi: hawezi kujua: inaacha yake/ inakuwa nguvu/ anasema: hii kazi iko nguvu/ ndiyo: haina nguvu hapana/ ni kazi tu ya kufanya: unaweka nguvu: unaweka roho muzuri ya kuwaza [with emphasis] mingi/ eh ni bintu: a: artiste eko anafanya asema nifanye bintu paka ya kiexacte vile iko hapa: hapana/ yee: ya kuimaginer/ njo artiste/ utafuta bintu: utafuta/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
F: imaginer?
K: imaginer? hapana kintu unaona: utaona wapi? siku mingi ingine unaona: hii ingine ya kuimaginer: unakumbuka: nilionaka nyama fulani/ mu kichwa/ maneno hauna na: na foto/ si unatumika? mu kichwa/ iko imagination/ [chukles] eh maneno hauna na bintu unaona hapana/
F: eyo/
K: maneno ulionaka zamani/ asema kwetu kulikuwa kulikuwa hivi/ kulikuwa bandeke sawa vile bandeke ...?...na batwenda mulongo/
F: oui/
K: ndiyo/ maneno kama unakutana bale bandeke batwenda mulongo/ ku mugulu/ iko mubaya: kule ku fasi kuko bachui/ na: vile minakumbuka vile kama minataka kutumika: si mitatumika? naanza kuiexpliquer byote/ njo ni mubaya...
F: ... ndeke sawa?
K: ndiyo/ mm/ ...?...
F: na: alisema?
K: minase: minasema bantu banabakia siku mingi na kazi ya peinture/ ah tunatumika siku mingi sana/ kutafuta wee: bintu: kuisha hapana/ tangu minakwenda: akili: ilikuwa kiloko: bintu: iko inakwenda/ na shee tuko nafwata tu/ njo sasa/
F: ni kusema: kupenta ni: ni: ni: ni kintu ya akili? ao ni kintu ya kuona? ao kintu ya: ya nini?
K: kupenta? kupenta:
F: oui/
K: inataka ku: kujua paka couleurs muzuri/
F: kujua namna gani?
K: kujua couleurs muzuri namna gani? hii kintu: iko hivi/ yataka ikuwe na couleurs hii na hii: njo itoke tableau muzuri: njo ile kintu/ inataka kuona unaimaginer kintu itatoka muzuri...
32. F: And [pauses: sound of striking a match], alright, fine. I think that’s all, unless – I don’t know maybe you a thought?
K: Yes.
F: Do you think that an artist’s work is better than other (kinds of) work?
K: Yes. An artist’s work is a little better than other work. (The work that artists) do – if you make an effort when you work you may survive (lit. be healed) and enough left to eat well, yes. That is true, yes.
F: So then, this is about the money you make? (Is an artist’s work also) better with regard to ...?... No.
K: No.
F: As you said before, and artist is poor.
K: Is he poor? Yes, and artist is poor.
F: But...
K: At the same time he is well off.
F: How so?
K: He is well off, and he...
F: Being poor.
K: Yes.
F: In what way can this be good?
K: No (there is no contradiction). Because as far as the work itself is concerned everyone knows that an artist is poor.
F: Mm.
K: But he himself, in the midst of his poverty, knows, we live modestly well. Yes. That’s how it is with an artist’s work. It is good work and, about being poor, everyone knows this. Because the money (an artist) makes comes (in the course of) a year, I cannot count on (it coming in regularly every) month. You won’t be paid. [chuckles] No way.
F: And how do others look at the artist?
K: Others love the work of the artist, or rather, sometimes they love the artist’s work, sometimes they have trouble understanding what it is. There are many of those.
F: Is this a problem?
K: Ah, it is a problem, bwana, because...
F: [overlapping] ...?.... Was it a problem in the past?
K: In the past people used to reject the work of the artist.
F: Mm.
K: Now that people love the artist’s work, it is the artist’s work that is difficult.
F: Still, how do they see it? When they think about it, how do they look at the artist...
K: Yes.
F: ...what do they think about an artist?
K: Well, nowadays they think an artist is – because in the past they used to say, an artist, what is that?
F: Mm.
K: When they talk about this today there are some who say, maybe there is something to being an artist and painter. That’s how people (talk).
F: Yes.
K: Mm. Now there are some who would like to get into this (kind of) work.
F: Mm.
K: As you get to know what it means to be an artist (you realize) there is one thing about an artist’s work, it is difficult to learn. A person may do it for a week only, or a month – he won’t get to know it and he abandons his (plans). It’s tough. He’ll say, this kind of work is tough. In fact, it isn’t tough. It’s work you simply do, you make an effort, you take it in the right spirit, which requires [with emphasis] a lot of thinking. The things an artist does – it is not that he tells himself I’ll paint things exactly how they are. What he does (is things he) must imagine. That’s what it means being an artist, you search for things, you explore.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: Imagining, (what is that)?
K: Imagining? It’s not a thing you see, where are you going to see it? Often you see something else, this “something else” is what you imagine. You remember, I used to see a certain animal. (This happens) in your head because you do don’t see it on a photograph. You work it out in your head, don’t you? That’s imagination [chuckles] because you don’t have before you things you see.
F: I see.
K: It’s something you used to see in the past. You tell yourself this is how it used to be back home, there were those birds ...?...running on the ground.
F: Yes.
K: Yes. Because it you come upon those birds running on the ground, on their legs, that is bad, (it means) there are leopards in that place. If I remember this and want to paint it I’ll do it, right? (Through the painting) I begin to explain all that. It is a bad sign...
F: ...(seeing) birds (running) like that?
K: Yes. Mm. ...?...
F: And – what was it you said?
K: I said, people spend a lot of time working as painters. Ah, we work for many days, searching for things without finishing. Ever since I have been doing this my understanding fell short, things move along and we just follow. That’s how it is now.
F: So, is painting about understanding or about seeing, or what is it about?
K: Painting? Painting...
F: Yes.
K: ... only calls for knowing colors well.
F: How does one know that?
K: How does one know colors well? It’s like this: The colors have to be such that the painting turns out beautifully, that’s what it is about. You must see to it that you imagine something such that it comes out beautifully...
33. F: ...na ku bankam: bankambo zamani:
K: mm/
F: ya: ya humu mwetu/
K: ndiyo/
F: aah: bo balikuwa kujua: rangi: mapenti?
K: ndiyo/ bale: zamani hakuwa: bo habakuwa kujua penti/ bo banakuwa kujua: kamata bulongo: kuumba: bintu: sawa potterie:
F: mm/
K: sawa: bintu gani: na kuchonga vile vile nkisi/ statuettes:
F: mm/
K: na bintu ingine vile vile ndiyo/ paka penti bo hapana jua/
F: si baliweka mu: mu: mu mwili? penti/
K: ku: hapana penti/ ile penti unaona banaweka: haina penti zaidi kama hii penti ya huile hapana/
F: non/
K: ni penti ya bulongo/
F: balikuwa na rangi/
K: na rangi ya bulongo mweupe:
F: [overlapping] na rangi: na rangi gani?
K: na mwekunda/
F: mweupe?
K: mweupe na mwekunda/ rangi mbili/
F: mbili tu?
K: ah: mbili/ hii mweushi ni yabo tu ya: haina ya langi: ni bintu ya masisi ya miti ya makala/
F: ya ...?...potopoto/
K: ndiyo/ njo ya tatu ile/
F: na hii ma: maana yake ya marangi: zamani: ilikuwa nini?
K: marangi ya zamani ilikuwa ni: ni bulongo/
F: ni bulongo?
K: ndiyo/
F: non: mais: maana yake/ sawa kila: kila rangi alikuwa na maf: mufano yake/ sawa mweupe:
K: ndiyo/ na: mwekunda:
F: mwekunda/
K: ndiyo/
F: mweupe njo nini?
K: mweupe: blanc/
F: oui oui: oui oui oui/ mais minasikia: alafu: mufano yake: ao: ao maana yake/ ni kusema: signification/
K: ah signification? hapana/ ku signification yake mweupe: ni kintu kyeupe ni hivi tu/ haikuwa na maana ya kufanya: ni kintu kufanya: kama: bantu banaanza kucheza: ya circonscision/
F: oui/
K: banaipakala penti mweupe:
F: mm/
K: asema sasa batoto: iko muzuri/
F: iko muzuri?
K: ndiyo/ kama batoto banaanza kubafanya circonscision premier jour:
F: oui/
K: inafaa kufanya mwekunda/
F: mwekunda/
K: njo kujua: iko damu/
F: iko damu?
K: ndiyo/
F: mm/
K: batoto banakwenda kule kubafanya circonscision/
F: c’est ça/
K: pale batoto batatoka: mu circonscision: njo ku: pa kamata mweupe ku: kuipakala: ile kuiweka ma...
F: circonscision: ni nini mu Swahili?
K: mi si: kiSwahili? mukanda/
F: mukanda?
K: ni mukanda/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/ mukanda/ njo vile vile: njo ku batoto ba kutoka kule ku mukanda: njo banasema aaah batoto yetu banapona: beko bote bazuri/ njo kuweka mpemba mweupe: banasema ooh: banapona: ni kweli/ bote/
F: banapona/
K: ah banapona/ banaona tu bwana kule atakuya: anaweka mpemba ...?...sema ooh: maneno kule ku mukanda: mama haikuona hapana/
F: aah/
K: eh/ banafichika mbali/
F: oui oui/
K: mwaka moya/
F: oui oui/
K: batoto banakomea: banavwala muzuri ku ba?packets ile na...?...
F: ...wee ulifanya: mukanda?
K: mukanda? mukanda: mi nilionaka/ nikingali mutoto/
F: hau: hau: haufanye?
K: mi: nilifanyaka mukanda ndiyo/
F: uli: uliingia...
K: niliingiaka na mukanda/
F: ah?
K: ndiyo/ ku: ku nani: ku: baLuba/
F: baLuba?
K: ndiyo/ ku bachefu ha niliingia/
F: ahah/
K: ni vile vile...
F: sawa mule: uto: mutoto:
K: nilikuwa mutoto kabisa/
F: eeh/
K: ah ule mutoto yangu alikomea: mutoto sana/
F: kumbe ulifunda hii mambo ya:
K: ah kama...
F: ya zamani?
K: ooh: kama nilifunda: kama nilikuwa mukubwa: kama nilifunda/ sasa unaona ile kifwebe:
F: mm/
K: sasa bana: ile banavwala costume: minaf: ilikuwa natembea mbio mbio: sasa banafika ku mukanda/ banamuke banaangaria hakuna: banafungula hivi: banafungula hii: banatosha: banamuweka kule: minaangaria: minaanza kukimbia asema eeh: unakimbia nini? wee sasa unakwenda ku mukanda/
F: mm/
K: njo ile banaona kwenda kukimbilisha banamuke/
F: hata wee uli: ulipasha kuficha mu: mu pori/
K: ah ooh na miye eeh/ ndiyo/
F: na: na batoto bengine?
K: na batoto benginayo/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/
F: sasa: sawa peintre sasa/
K: ndiyo/
F: unaona hii: hii maana ya: ya rangi ya zamani? sasa kama unaona mweupe:
K: ndiyo/
F: unasikia?
K: eeh: mi: iko muzuri/
F: ni muzuri?
K: eh ndiyo/
F: kama unaona:
K: naona mwekunda: minaona sema sema njo ile nilionaka mukanda/
F: unaona sawa?
K: ah naona paka hivi/ si mi najua yote: mina: he: asema: aaah: njo ile: ilitufanyaka mukanda/ rangi mwekunda/ maneno ile inyewe bulongo: humu hamuna/ hii rangi yetu ya bulongo humu hamuna/ eh/ hamuna/
F: hii: hii: mwekunda?
K: ile: ile ya mukanda/ eh/ hamuna humu/
F: paka...
K: paka Monsieur ?Depok: njo ilipata/
F: mm?
K: ndio/ huyu tu: Monsieur tulikuwa nayo ku musée/
F: oui oui/
K: ndiyo/ asema unajua hii Kabinda? minasema oh minajua ni rangi ya mukanda ya bantu ya zamani sawa bale/
F: mu baLuba: ulifanya mu baLuba wapi?
K: ku: huku: ku Kinda/ ku Kanku: ku nani: ku Sokele/
F: Sokele?
K: ndiyo/
F: aah/
K: ndiyo/ ndiyo/ maneno bandugu yangu bilienda kule/
F: ahah/
K: ah: bamingi banayenga kule/ sasa njo vile bilitufaniya mukanda/
33. F: ... and your ancestors, long ago.
K: Mm.
F: (Those who lived here) in our country.
K: Yes.
F: Did they know about colors, paints?
K: No. Those who lived here long ago didn’t know about paints. They knew how to use earth and create things like pottery.
F: Mm.
K: All sorts of things. And (they also knew) how to carve statuettes.
F: Mm.
K: And things of that kind, yes. Only, they didn’t know paints.
F: Didn’t they put paint on the body?
K: Not paint, the paints they you saw them using were not really paints like oil paints.
F: No.
K: They were earth paints.
F: But they had (different) colors.
K: The color of white earth.
F: [overlapping] Colors, what kind of colors?
K: And read (earth).
F: White?
K: White and red, two colors.
F: Just two?
K: Yes, two. The black they used wasn’t paint, it was something made from charred tree roots.
F: And from mud.
K: Yes. Those were the three (colors).
F: And what was the meaning of the (different) colors in the old days?
K: In the old days the colors were earth (colors).
F: Earth?
K: Yes.
F: No (what I am asking is) what was their meaning? Every color had its signification? White, for instance.
K: Yes. And red.
F: Red.
K: Yes.
F: White, what is it?
K: White is [French] white.
F: Yes, yes, I understand but what did it signify, what did it mean? In other words, [in French] the signification.
K: Ah, the signification? No. The signification of white – it’s just a white thing. It did not need to given a meaning. It was something done when people began dancing at [in French] circumcision ...
F: Yes.
K: ... they put on white paint.
F: Mm.
K: It said, the children, now (all) is well (with them).
F: All is well?
K: Yes. On the first day, when they began to circumcise the boys.
F: Yes.
K: Red had to be used.
F: Red.
K: To know it was blood.
F: It was blood?
K: Yes.
F: Mm.
K: So the boys went to the place where they would be circumcised.
F: That’s right.
K: When the boys would come out of circumcision that was when they took white and put it on...
F: Circumcision, what is this in Swahili?
K: I don’t – in Swahili? Mukanda.[54]
F: Mukanda?
K: It’s mukanda.
F: Mm.
K: Yes, mukanda. So, when the boys come out of mukanda that is when people say, aah, our children have recovered, all of the are beautiful. That’s when they put on white clay and say, ooh the have recovered, it’s the truth, all of them.
F: They have recovered.
K: Yes, they recovered. When they see this man coming out, having put on white clay, they say ooh – because his mother saw nothing of what went on in circumcision (school).
F: I see.
K: Yes, they were hiding somewhere far away.
F: Yes, yes.
K: For one year.
F: Yes, yes.
K: The boys are grown up now and dress up beautifully in those ...?....
F: ...did you do the mukanda.
K: The mukanda? I saw it all the time when I was still a child.
F: You didn’t do it?
K: Me, I did the mukanda, yes.
F: So you entered...
K: I entered the mukanda.
F: Really?
K: Yes. With the Luba.
F: The Luba?
K: It was in the place where the chiefs are. That’s where I entered.
F: I see.
K: That’s how it was.
F: You were there as a child.
K: Of course, I was a child.
F: Yes.
K: Ah, this child of mine is already grown (compared to) the small child I was.
F: So then you learned those things...
K: If only...
F: ...from the old times.
K: Ooh, if I only I had learned (them at the time). When I had grown up that was when I learned about them. Now, you saw this kifwebe (mask)...
F: Mm.
K: There were people wearing this costume, moving real fast until they got to the mukanda. They were no women watching this. Then they would open one (?door) after the other, take out (the candidates) and put them there. I watched this and I started running away. Eeh, what do you run away for, you go into the mukanda now.[55]
F: Mm.
K: They went around chasing away the women who were watching.
F: So you had to hide in the bush.
K: Ah, ooh, me too, yes.
F: Together with other boys?
K: With the other boys.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: So now, being a painter now.
K: Yes.
F: Do you see the meaning colors had in the past? Nowadays, when you see white.
K: Yes.
F: Do you understand (what it means)?
K: Yes, it’s something good.
F: It is good?
K: Well, yes.
F: When you see...
K: ...when I see red, I keep telling myself, that’s what I saw in mukanda.
F: That’s how you see it?
K: Ah, that’s exactly how I see it. I know all that, don’t I? I tell myself, aah, that’s what they used on us in mukanda. Red color. However, this earth color does not exist here. This red color of ours does not exist here. It does not exist.
F: This red (color)?
K: The one they used in mukanda. It does not exist here.
F: Only...
K: Only Monsieur ?Depok, he got hold of it.
F: Mm?
K: Yes, that was the gentleman we worked with at the museum.
F: Yes, yes.
K: Yes. He said, do you know this, Kabinda? I said ooh, I know it is a color people used in mukanda in the old times.
F: In Luba country. Where in Luba country did you do this?
K: Here in Kinda, in Kanku, in, what was the name? in Sokele.
F: Sokele?
K: Yes.
F: I see.
K: Yes. Yes, Because that is where my relatives went.
F: Ahah.
K: Ah, many of them settled there. So this was how they made us go through mukanda.
34. F: unawaza kama zamani balikuwa na artistes? mu wakati ya bankambo?
K: ya: artistes?
F: mm/ ao parce que hii ni nam: ni: kintu ya bazungu?
K: ndiyo/ artistes ni kintu ya bazungu/ bo bililikuwa banachonga bintu yabo/ bile bintu banachonga/ iko sawa: masques/ ya kuchonga:
F: oui oui oui/ oui oui/
K: eeh/ ya kuchonga vile: eh...
F: na ku: na: na: bale benye kuchonga:
K: na bi...
F: banakuwa artistes?
K: bale ba kuchonga? habakuwa baartistes: banakuwa kujua ni muntu ya kuchonga hivi/ hakuwa banajua asema huyu ni artiste hapana/ eh/
F: na bale bwenye kuchonga: mastatues?
K: ah: bale vile vile ni be: ni...
F: zanamu?
K: ya ile ma zanamu? mazanamu ndiyo: hakujua kama ni artistes/ batajua ni muchongayi tu ya mazanamu/ bantu kuuza hapana/
F: ni kusema: artistes: balikuwa na mawazo sawa wee u: unakuwa na mawazo? kila muntu iko na style yake:
K: na style: ça est ça/ njo: na zamani paka vile/
F: paka vile?
K: ndiyo/ zamani: kwiko ule artiste ilitoshaka: anafanya sawa nshimba/ kintu sawa nshimba: sasa kule banaweka bulongo: huku mukongo: banaweka: nani: soufflet:
F: oui/
K: sasa ile soufflet inaingia mu mukila ya nshimba: maneno humu muko moto/
F: oui/
K: eh bwiko: ntumbo hivi/
F: oui/
K: ile soufflet inaingia mu kinywa ya nshimba: ku matako ya nsimba: huku inatoka na ile inyee muti: sasa kule iko njo moto/ yee anaanza kufanya ku: ile nshimba inashimama pa moto: ile moto inawaka: kyuma inaanza ku:
F: kimu?
K: eh: kiuma hii banaweka maibwe...
F: simba ni lion?
K: ndiyo: lion/ ndiyo/ sasa ile: maibwe: inageuka: mayi/ mayi inakuwa kiuma/
F: c’est ça/
K: ndiyo/ njo banafanya: ile: shoka: haches/
F: shoka?
K: ndiyo/ beko banafanya shoka...
F: mipanga/
K: mipanga: na vile vile bintu yote ya kisu/ njo vile/ na/
F: na hii fulu yabo:
K: eh/ ile fulu njo minasema: ile shimba/
F: inafanana na shimba?
K: na shimba/ ile fulu njo shimba ule/
F: eyo?
K: eh/ yee shimba inashimama hivi:...
F: ...hata sasa hii fashi tuliona mu: balifanya mukuba:
K: ah ooh: hii ya huku ku Kandundu?
F: oui oui oui/
K: aah: ndiyo/
F: na hii fulu?
K: ah: ni fulu/
F: iko sawa simba?
K: sawa sawa shimba/ njo ya zamani ile/
F: mina: mi minaona ilikuwa sawa mwanamuke/
K: na huko iko/
F: sawa mwanamuke ina: mwanamuke inaikala/
K: aaah ile ni ingine/
F: na tumbo yake:
K: eheh/
F: na: hii: hii banaweka...
K: hii soufflet:
F: sawa maziba yake:
K: ahah ndiyo/ ah: ile nani: ile ni ya baSanga/
F: ni ile ya baSanga?
K: ya baSanga inaachana: kila muntu na style yake/ unsikia? njo muzuri/
F: njo style?
K: [coughs] ahah kila muntu na style yake/ [coughs] uko style ya huyu:
F: style: mastyles namna gani? fulu? style ya fulu ao?
K: ya fulu eeh/ kila muntu anafanya style yake ya fulu:
F: mm/
K: hapana copier mwenzake/
F: aah bon/
K: yee yake ya shimba: hapana copier ya mwenzake/
F: ah bon?
K: eheh/
F: ile banafanya: be: ba: bengine banfanya simba:
K: [overlapping] ya simba: sawa unasema ingine ya banamuke: kuliko huyu: kila muntu anafanya na mufano yake/
F: ah bon/
K: ndiyo/ njo kwa kujua kuya anaita bintu yake: ulifanya namna gani? asema: nilifanya na: mwa: mwa: nani: ya simba/
F: oui/
K: simba namna gani? unamuambia asema ooh shee tuko na mambo ingine na: na kule kwetu/ anafika anaangaria asema aaah: hii unafanya namna gani? paka vile/ ah banasikia muzuri/ na vile vile mu artiste: iko namna moya: minaona sasa/ kila muntu anaf: na bintu yake ya artistiques/ kama anafanya sawa mwenzake: bataisha kuuza namna gani: bintu paka namna moya? ndiyo/ habawezi kuuza/ ndiyo/ sawa sawa uliuza hii: ya bandeke na ile: hauwezi kuuza paka ile: ah: eko ingine/
F: mm/
K: ah ndiyo/
34. F: Do you think that they had artists in the past, in the time of the ancestors?
K: Artists?
F: Mm. Or is this something European?
K: Yes. Artists, that is a European thing. They (the ancestors) used to carve their objects. The things they carved were masks, for instance, carved (masks).
F: Yes, yes, of course.
K: Yes, carved objects like, well, ....
F: And among the carvers...
K: ...and...
F: ..were there artists?
K: Among the carvers? They were’nt artists, people just knew that a person was a carver. They didn‘t know, they didn’t say, this one is an artist.
F: And what about those who carved statues?
K: They also were...
F: Statuettes.
K: The ones who carved statuettes? Statuettes, yes. They were not known as artists. They would be known as carvers of statuettes. People did not buy (their statuettes).
F: What I mean by artists is did they have thoughts as you have thoughts? Everyone had his style.
K: Style, that’s it. That was the same in the old days.
F: Just the same?
K: Yes. In the past, an artist was someone who would construct a nshimba,[56] for instance, a thing like a nshimba – they used clay and in the back they would put bellows.
F: Yes.
K: Now, the bellows goes into the tail of the shimba because there is a fire inside.
F: Yes.
K: Like in its belly.
F: Yes.
K: The bellows goes into the tail[57] of the nshimba, between the nsimba’s ass cheeks. Here, (a pipe) made of wood comes out (of the bellows) and there is the fire. Then the operator works (the bellows) so that the nshimba gets fired up and stays hot. Then the metal begins to...
F: Kimu?[58]
K: The iron, the stones (ore) they put (inside the furnace).
F: Simba, meaning lion?
K: Yes, lion. Yes. Then the ore turns liquid. The liquid is iron.
F: That’s it.
K: Yes. Then they make those hoes, haches.[59]
F: Hoes?
K: Yes. They make hoes..
F: ...and machetes.
K: Machetes, and other things that work like a knife. That’s what it is, and...
F: And this furnace of theirs...
K: This furnace is what I call a shimba.
F: (Because) it looks like a lion?
K: A lion. It is this furnace, that is the shimba (we are talking about).
F: Really?
K: Yes. The shimba is standing up like that...
F: ...Just recently we saw this place where the made ingots.
K: Ooh, (you mean) here in Kandundu?
F: Yes, yes, of course.
K: Ah, yes.
F: And this furnace?
K: Yes, this furnace.
F: It is like a lion.
K: Exactly like a lion. That’s what it was like in the past.
F: I observed that it was shaped like a woman.
K: That (kind) also exists here.
F: Like a woman, a woman lying down.
K: Aaah, that is another kind.
F: With her belly.
K: Yes.
F: And then they put this...
K: This bellows.
F: (That looks) like her breasts.
K: Aha, yes. That is the kind the Sanga use.
F: The kind the Sanga use?
K: The one the Sanga use is different. Everyone has his style, you understand? That’s good.
F: It’s (a matter of) style?
K: [coughs] Aah, everyone has his style. [coughs] You have the style of this person...
F: ...Style. Styles, in what sense? The style of the furnace, or what?
K: Of the furnace, yes. Everyone makes the furnace in his style.
F: Mm.
K: Without copying your colleague.
F: Ah, alright.
K: He has his kind of shimba, without copying that of his colleague’s.
F: Is that so?
K: Yes.
F: So what they do is – some make (the furnace) like a lion.
K: [overlapping] Like a lion. As you said, another one (makes it look) like a woman, yet another one – everyone follow his own model.
F: Ah, alright.
K: Yes. And when you want to know how he calls his (you ask), how did you do this? The answer will be, I made (the furnace to look) like a lion.
F: Yes.
K: How so, like a lion? You may tell him, oh, we have different things, back home. He gets there, looks at it, and says aaah: How do you do this. That’s how it goes, they understand it perfectly. And that is how it goes among artists, it’s the same, as I realize now. Everyone has something that makes him an artist. If he works like his colleague, how are people going to buy stuff that looks the same? Yes. No, they are not likely to buy (anything). For instance, if you bought (a painting) of birds you are not going to buy another one that looks the same. Ah, it will be a different one.
F: Mm.
K: Ah, yes.      
35. F: bon muzuri/
K: njo ile bwana/
F: siyue kama uko na: na mawazo ingine ao na kintu ya ku: kuniuliza? ao:
K: ah: ndiyo: kwa kintu ya kuuliza bwana: aah ile kwa kintu we tunaliaka tu paka masomo ya Académie/
F: oui/
K: ndiyo njo tunaliao Kolwezi/
F: hapa Kolwezi?
K: hapa Kolwezi bwana/ kama: ilikuwa hivi: bote: a: bale mu cité banalia mingi/
F: mulisikilizana na: na bakubwa?
K: kama: njo tulitaka/ tulitaka kusikilizanaka zamani/ tulitaka kuuliza kwanza: ku bakubwa: kama batatubali: mbele kuandika mikanda/
F: mm/
K: eh: kuji...?... artistes bote/
F: mu: mulifanya nkundi?
K: ah bado kufanya nkundi/
F: inafaa kufanya nkundi/
K: ndiyo/ maneno kama banafanya vile: banatuitika: sasa hapa tutafanya masomo/
F: mm/
K: sasa ba musimamizi oh/
F: non: inafaa: kwanza inafaa kufanya nkundi:
K: ndiyo/
F: kiisha nafanya: inafaa kufanya: ku: kuanza mwee mwenyewe na: na: na mafundisho/
K: na mafundisho eeh: ndiyo/
F: kumbe: bakubwa bataona:
K: mm/
F: bele: bale bantu beko na initiative/
K: aaah: ndiyo/
F: mara ingine:
K: ndiyo/
F: batasema bon: tunaitika: munaanza sasa académie/
K: aaaah/
F: njo minawaza ni namna ya...
K: ni kweli bwana: ile unasema na: ni muzuri sana/
F: hata na: na: kufanya exposition/
K: aaah: exposition ndiyo/ ya...?...
F: ni kusema exposition ina: hapana exposition paka na bazungu/
K: exposition paka na bazungu?
F: non non/
K: ah/
F: haina muzuri/ [claps] inafaa kufanya exposition:
K: aah/
F: ya bantu bote/
K: ahah ndiyo/
F: mm?
K: eheh/
F: utaendelea namna gani kama uta: utauzisha paka na wazungu?
K: aah ni kweli/
F: [overlapping]...?...?
K: hapana: ni kweli/
F: siku ingine: bazungu:
K: eeh/
F: banarudia kwabo/
K: banarudia/ sasa: ile utafanya nani batauza?
F: inafaa: inafaa: fundisha:
K: ndiyo/
F: bantu/
K: bantu: ah ndiyo/
F: kufundisha ya: ya kupenda...
K: kupenta: kuchonga:
F: non/ kupenda/
K: na kupenda/
F: kupenda peinture/
K: kupenda peinture ndiyo/
F: ah? unaona?
K: sasa unaona banaanza kupenda: zamani hapana/ sasa banapenda sana/
F: c’est ça/
K: beko nauza: zamani hapana kuuza hapana/
F: mm/
K: sasa banauza mu ville na ba mu cités: iko nauza/
F: mm/
K: ndiyo/ ile iko: ile unasema bwana ni kweli/
F: bon muzuri: aksanti/
K: ndiyo bwana/ [recording unterrupted]
35. F: Alright, fine.
K: That’s it, bwana.
F: I don’t know, do you have another thought, or something you want to ask me?
K: Ah, yes. If there is something to ask, bwana, its the regrets we have regarding a school, an (art) academy.
F: Yes.
K: Yes, that’s what we regret, (not having one) in Kolwezi.
F: Here in Kolwezi?
K: Here in Kolwezi, bwana. If only there was (such a school) – all those many who live in the cité complain about that.
F: Do you get along with the authorities?
K: We wanted to, we tried to come to and understanding long ago. When we began to approach the authorities with our request they would I ignore us. (It has to be done) in writing first
F: Mm.
K: Yes, all the artists ...?...
F: Did you organize a group?
K: Ah, so far no group has been organized.
F: You must form a group.
K: Yes. Because if that were the case one would listen to us and we would set up a school right away.
F: Mm.
K: Now, the authorities – oh.
F: No,you must first form a group.
K: Yes.
F: Once you have done that you should start teaching classes on you own.
K: Teach classes, yes.
F: Then the authorities are going to see.
K: Mm.
F: These people show initiative.
K: Ah, yes.
F: Maybe...
K: Yes,
F: ...they’ll say, alright, we go along with this, and then you start with an academy.
K: Aaah.
F: That is how I think (you should go about it).
K: It’s the truth, bwana, what you say makes a lot of sense.
F: And you should also organize and exposition.
K: An exposition, yes
F: That is to say, not an exposition just for Europeans.
K: An exposition only for Europeans?
F: No, no.
K: Ah.
F: That’s no good. [claps] An exposition should be organized...
K: Aah.
F: ...for everyone.
K: Ahah, yes.
F: Mm?
K: Yes.
F: How are you going to carry on if you only sell to Europeans?
K: Ah, that’s true.
F: [overlapping]...?...?
K: No, that’s true.
F: Someday, the Europeans...
K: Yes.
F: ...will go back home.
K They’ll go back. What are you going to do then, who is going to buy?
F: You should teach...
K: Yes.
F: ... the people.
K: The people, ah yes.
F: Teach them to appreciate...
K: ... to paint, to carve.
F: No, to appreciate.
K: To appreciate.
F: To appreciate painting.
K: To appreciate painting, yes.
F: You see (what I mean)?
K: Nowadays you see that people begin to appreciate (painting), that was not the case in the past. Nowadays they like it a lot.
F: That’s it.
K: They buy, which they didn’t do in the past.
F: Mm.
K: Nowadays they buy, in town as well in the townships.
F: Mm.
K: Yes. What you say there, bwana, is true.
F: Alright, fine. Thank you.
K: Yes, bwana. [recording interrupted]
36. F: ni kusema Madame anapenda hii:
K: ndiyo/
F: hii peinture tunaona/
K: ndiyo/
F: unaweka bei ngapi?
K: mia saba/
F: mia saba/
K: ndiyo/
F: [claps] sept Zaire/
K: ndiyo/
I. S: What? How many? Seven?
F: Seven, yeah/
I. S.: Seven/
F: bon/ maana yake ni nini?
K: maana yake ule shimba?
F: mm/ ni simba:
K: ndiyo/ shimba/ maneno shimba sasa: minaona shimba ya hii wakati inakuwa na namna ingine/ shimba zamani: ilikuwa nakuya kule kwetu/ maneno zamani hap: zamani shimba: bantu bilikuwa karibu: na hata iko inje hivi/
F: mm/
K: eh/ ata: paka wee muntu anafanya makari: njo anakubamba hata nyama/ kama pa kule: shimba anakuwa tu ni karibu hivi/ anakuwa kulya muntu hapana/
F: hapana?
K: hapana: zamani hapana/
F: hapana/
K: hata ngambo ya Mafunga/ paka ni namna moya/
F: Mafunga?
K: Mafunga: kule ku: kupita Sokele: ku Mafunga/ karibu na: karibu na Mutshatsha/
F: c’est ça/
K: ndiyo/
F: bon/
K: ile minaona ile: shimba kule: inaanza kuwa sawa shimba yetu ya zamani/
F: na sa: hata sasa: simba iko?
K: hata sasa/ iko na leo hivi na sasa iko/
F: wapi? ku:
K: ku Mafunga/
F: Mafunga?
K: ndiyo/ kule: shimba iko/
F: mm/
K: na vile vile: sasa shimba anakuya: haifanye kintu hapana/
F: mm/
K: ilikuwa nakuwa pa...?... nabamba bantu: muntu paka anasema yee mwenyewe zamani: shimba anakuwa na akili/
F: oui/
K: paka anasema haa: huyu shimba wa sasa: angaria: kama ilifanya hivi: muntu ilitaka kufwa/ shimba anashikia/
F: mm/
K: asema angarie: kumbe bantu: ni hivi/ njo pale niliona asema shimba hata nyama: naanza kubambala/
F: ahah/
K: njo ile eheh/
F: oui c’est ça/ minaona/
K: mm/
36. F: What I was saying, Madame[60] likes this one.
K: Yes.
F: This painting we are looking at.
K: Yes.
F: How much do you ask for it?
K: Seven hundred.
F: Seven hundred.
K: Yes.
F: [claps] Seven Zaire.
K: Yes.
I. S.: [in English]What? How many? Seven?
F: Seven, yeah.
I. S.: Seven.
F: Alright. What is (this painting) about?
K: What this lion is about?
F: Mm. It’s a lion.
K: Yes. Mm. A lion. (I painted it) because nowadays lions behave differently. In the old days, back home, lions and people would get close (to one another), even out (in the wild).
F: Mm.
K: Yes. Only when you acted aggressively (the lion) would catch you like an animal. In those days a lion could be this close but would not eat a human being.
F: No?
K: No, not in the old days.
F: Non.
K: Even around Mafunga, it was the same.
F: Mafunga?
K: Mafunga there, passing Sokele (you get) to Mafunga, it’s close to Mutshatsha.
F: That’s it.
K: Yes.
F: Alright.
K: The lions I observed there are like the ones we knew in the past.
F: So, today, lions are still around?
K: Right now. This very day they are around.
F: Where? In...
K: In Mafunga.
F: Mafunga?
K: Yes. There are lions.
F: Mm.
K: Like (in the past), a lion comes close nowadays he doesn’t give you any trouble.
F: Mm.
K: It used to be (lions) caught people. A person would address him in the old days – the lion is intelligent.
F: Yes.
K: He would say, look at this lion, if he were to act like (lions do) today, a person would die. The lion hears that.
F: Mm.
K: Look, he tells himself, to that’s what people are like. That was where I observed how the lion would rather catch animals.
F: Ahah.
K: That’s that.
F: Yes, that’s that, I see.
K: Mm.
37. F: bon/ ah: bon/ tutaendelea na:
K: ndiyo/
F: sasa hii: [pick up another painting] mu: mu penti yako...
I. S.: ...that was seven: and the other one ten for...
K: ...?...haba ba: bankima hawa?
F: oui/ oui oui/ minaona/
K: she tuko nabo na mambo zamani kweli/
F: mm/
K: zamani: bilikuwa banafika na pa mukini: banaikala/
F: mm/
K: sasa wakati bilifanya: kufika: banakamata banamulya/ anafika anakamata na mulya/
F: oui/
K: sasa: moya njo itatokaka mukubwa yao/ mu asubui mu cinq heures du matin/
F: oui oui/
K: asema Kasongo: chile na wawo: jina: beko na jina: Kasongo/
F: Kasongo?
K: eh/ haba peko kama mwanaume ni Kasongo/
F: ahah/
K: asema Kasongo/ sasa unajua haba benzenu ...?...ku tulikuyaka/ asema na banduku/
sasa bo banaanza kukimbia/ banaanza:
F: oui/ oui oui/ minaona/
K: ndiyo/ banaanza ku: kuitulya/
F: oui/
K: tuli..?...bee twende mu pori...
F: [overlapping]...njo: huyu ni: ni hii tableaux ya: ya: ya ingine/ non: mais: alafu hii: ya: juu ya simba:
K: ya:
F: ni kusema: uliwaza namna gani? hii: hii: arisi yake ni: njo nini?
K: arishi ya ile shimba?
F: mm/
K: shimba ilikuwa mu bulumba/
F: ahah/
K: ndiyo/ ilikuwa yake mu bulumba: iko nakuya: yee bado kuona nyama/
F: mm/
K: bado/ nyama naye yake ilikuwa na mambo yake na mawazo: anachoka/ asema sasa saa mitakwenda wapi? njo anaikala/ na yee naye njo anakuya: iko anatafuta nyama: pale anatosha ludimi sasa njo atakuya na mambo yake sasa/ ya kukamatana kule atakwenda/
F: c’est ça/
K: ah njo ile/
F: na hii fond/ ulifanya na: minawaza ni...
K: ya pinceau/
F: ya pinceau:
K: en tube/ yote/
F: oui/
K: mi shi...
F: mina: minaona kama inaachana na: hii fond ya ndeke/
K: aah ile inaachana/
F: mm/
K: ile: inaachana/ na hii tena naangaria mu buku: mu mwa: mu mwa albumu/
F: mm/
K: njo fond yangu ya premier: ya bandeke shiwekake fond/
F: ahah/
K: bandeke naweka fond noir/
F: ah bon/
K: eheh/ ndiyo/ mu ndeke naweka fond noir/ ile fond yangu ya mu: à l’heure du matin: yote: inafanyaka fond/
F: ah bon?
K: mu: mu bushiku mangaribi naweka fond noir/
F: c’est ça/
K: hata na Père Pascal: tunakutana mingi na mwe: na mule mu mwa baSoeurs: ilikutana paka Kabinda Kabinda: byote: paka namna moya/
F: ahah/
K: ndiyo/
F: eyo/
K: ndiyo/ [end of recording]
37. F: Fine, alright. Let’s go on.
K: Yes.
F: Now about this one [picks up another painting]. In your painting...
I. S.: That was seven, and the other one ten for...
K: ...?... (you see) those monkeys here?
F: Yes. Yes, I see them.
K: We had a quarrel with them, way back in the old days.
F: Mm.
K: In the old days they would come to a village and sit down..
F: Mm.
K: Now, what they did when they arrived, they took your (food) and ate it. As soon as one of them arrived he grabbed and ate it.
F: Yes.
K: Now, there was one who would be their leader. In the morning, at five in the morning...
F: Yes, yes.
K: ...(there was a call): Kasongo, chile na wawo[61]-- they have names, Kasongo (was the monkey’s name).
F: Kasongo?
K: Yes. When they are around the name for a male is Kasongo.
F: I see.
K: Kasongo! You know that your people have....?.... [62] He told his relatives and they were ready to run.
F: Yes, yes. I see that.
K: Yes. They would eat our food.
F: Yes.
K: ...?...Let’s go (they said), into the bush.
F: [overlapping] ... this is something in that other painting. No, but this one, the one about the lion.
K: About (the lion).
F: (What I want to say is) how did you think it up? What is the story behind it?
K: The story of this lion?
F: Mm.
K: The lion was on a hunt.
F: Aha.
K: Yes. He was on his hunt, he was prowling, he hadn’t seen the antelope [63] yet.
F: Mm.
K: Not yet. The antelope, too, had something on his mind, he was tired. He told himself where should I go now? So he stayed put. Meanwhile (the lion) comes (closer), he is searching for the antelope. That he let’s his tongue hang out (shows) he means business, to make a catch where he goes.
F: That’s it.
K: Yes, that’s what it is about.
F: And the background here, I think you did it with...
K: ...with a brush.
F: With a brush.
K: In tube paint, everything.
F: Yes.
K: I don’t...
F: ... what I see is that it is different from the background (in the painting) of birds.
K: Yes, that one is different.
F: Mm.
K: That one is different. Also, it looks like an album, (like a picture) in a (photography) album.
F: Mm.
K: What it is, the background I did in the first one, (the painting) of the birds – (in that kind of painting) I usually don’t paint a (decorative) background.
F: Ahah.
K: For the birds I put in a black background.
F: Ah, alright.
K: Yes. In a (painting of) birds I put a dark background, the one I do for the morning hour – everything makes the background.
F: Is that so?
K: For the night, the evening, I put in a black background.
F: That’s it.
K: At Père Pascal’s and at the Sisters’ convent, you find only Kabinda, (paintings) by Kabinda, all of them done in that way.
F: Ahah.
K: Yes.
F: I see,
K: Yes. [end of recording]


Notes

[1] On mpumina see Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954: 547 (“name given to the Great Spirit of Lake Upemba”) and note 130 to the Vocabulaire.
[2] The Standard Dictionary has kichania from –chana, slit, separate, part, comb.
[3] Kabinda seems to tell Kasongo not to get involved with this question.
[4] This is the literal sense I make of his cryptic statement. Perhaps Kabinda meant that the paintings were made to support the story.
[5] Kasongo says beliona instead of baliona. Both he and especially Kabinda seem to follow a principle of vowel harmony (a before i becomes e or i). Other prominent, though never completely consistent, “deviations” in Kabinda’s speech are shi for si, zhi or ji for zi. My rule has always been to follow a practical, “common sense” phonology in transcribing and to ignore alternate pronunciation (common sense means inspired by conventions of grass roots literacy in Katanga Swahili). Only when I felt that alternate pronunciation had communicative significance did I show it in the transcript, usually with an explanatory note. In this text the alternates are so frequent that I decided to represent them as often as it seemed practical without resorting to phonetic transcription. For an exact analysis of Kabinda’s (and other speakers’) idiolects or sociolects linguists would have to go back to the sound recordings. In my view, the results will always defy generalization, even if the threshold of “deviation” (i.e. using alternative phonations) is set very low.
[6] I leave muzungu untranslated. In most contexts it means European or White but it is not unequivocally expressive of color or race. An African American will be called muzungu like other Non-Africans. However not all Non-Africans are bazungu: “mediterraneans,” such as Greek, Italians, Portuguese, and Jews will be referred to by their ethnic labels.
[7] Masikio usually is the plural of sikio, ears: here in the sense of “things one wears in ears.”
[8] My guess that (ki)komo is derived from English comb. In the next sentence Kasongo speaks of a kichnanuo, “a large comb, often of wood, with long coarse teeth,” according to the Standard Dictionary. Perhaps the contrast is between a mass-produced and a taditional, crafted comb.
[9] Kasongo says peignoir, bath robe, but it clear that he means peigne, comb.
[10] I don’t find a term with that meaning in my Swahili and Luba dictionaries. Achille Mutombo confirms that bikoma is current in Katanga Swahili for bracelets.
[11] This paragraph may belong to the preceding exchange – (Mamba Muntu paintings may be classed as landscapes – but here it stands somewhat apart as a separate topic: landscapes in Mamba Muntu paintings.
[12] Kasongo struggles with three terms for this large body of water. First he calls it mutoni, river, then he oscillates between kisiwa, pond or lake, and bahari, sea, ocean. In the final statement the referent is not clear: Does he want to say that Lake Tanganyika flows into the ocean or that Mamba Muntu enters the lake? I opt for the latter.
[13] Both say cosses, pods, rather than feuilles de bananier, banana leaves, which I remember as the more current expression.
[14] Kigoma is a town on the Tanzania shore of Lake Tanganyika.
[15] The preceding is an example of passages where the conversation just seems to coast rather than move forward. Although the turns are short – single words or short phrases – frequent overlaps make this kind of exchanges very difficult to transcribe and translate.
[16] “Before,” zamani, refers to the time before Mobutu’s regime ordered all Zaireans to assume “authentic” names.
[17] Kabinda corrects himself – in his mind Mutshatsha (a rail stop Katanga, near the borders with Zambia and Angola) is the place he comes from though he was born in Kinda (West-Kasai).
[18] Another sentence whose general meaning seems clear while a literal translation is impossible: Are the muzee and baba yangu one or two (or more) persons? Was Desfossés the “old man” who approached Kabinda’s father? Nor is the verb form bafunda clear.
[19] Though this was where he started out Kabinda was not know as a “member” of the Desfossés school. I found no trace of Kabinda when I searched Desfossés on Google (more than 17000 hits).
[20] The prefix ki- Kabinda uses with masomo, school could have a pejorative, deprecatory connotation or express something like “the official school system.”
[21] For a recent exposition of the painters who worked at the “Hangar” (as the Desfossés school was called) see: http://sanza.skynetblogs.be/tag/1/mwenze and another one of “popular painting:” http://sanza.skynetblogs.be/post/5122554/mawazo--la-peinture-populaire .
[22] Cité, as opposed to ville, town, and camp (miners’ settlement) was the former CEC (centre extra-coutumier). At the time of our conversation it was official called Zone Manika.
[23] Laurent Moonens (1911-1991) counts as the founder of the Académie de Beaux Arts of Elisabethville/Lubumbashi (for a short biography see http://balat.kikirpa.be/DPB/FR/FMPro?-db=Dictionnaire.fp5&-lay=web&-format=Detail_notice.htm&ID_dpb=3983&-find). Marcel Pire (1913-1981, see http://books.google.de/books?id=RofWROYpSPgC&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=Marcel+Pire+Elisabethville&source=bl&ots=t12qUuWDBU&sig=W_6G5QaIjV7Pz4UOYtdN4am5tP4&hl=de&ei=wvwTSpXcHImL_Qbj06imDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3. I have note been able to identify the name I transcribe here as “Demat.”
[24] This was Marcel Pille, a Belgian painter and teacher at the Lubumbashi Académie de Beaux Art, who also taught Kanyemba (see Text One, notes 14 and 15).
[25] Kabinda says asitenir. The negative prefix asi- is considered typical of mining-company Swahili, one of the traces left from the South-African work language that preceded Swahili in Katanga, Kikabanga/ Fanagalo.
[26] On TRABEKA (Société d'entreprise de travaux de béton du Katanga) see note 27 to the Vocabulaire.
[27] Father Pascal Ceuterick, a Franciscan missionary and at that time pastor of the main parish in Kolwezi, had begun his career in Kapanga, among the Lunda where he had close ties to the ruling clan. In Kolwezi he was an important informal advisor to the local authorities (and the mining company). I had met him first in the US in 1965 when he invited me to do my PhD field research on the Jamaa movement in Kolwezi. There he was a generous host (and frequent interlocutor) during the second part of my stay (I had started out in the nearby mining camp of Musonoi).
[28] A school for girls run by the “Chanoinesses régulières de Saint-Augustin de la Congrégation Notre-Dame.”
[29] Kabinda wanted to return to his story but I was still intrigued. Though I had lived in or near Kolwezi for a year and a half in 1966-67 and was staying there again in 1973 when this conversation was recorded I had never heard about a museum in Kolwezi.
[30] Kabinda says minafunda, I learn, but, unless I assume that he meant “I teach” I cannot make any sense of this sentence.
[31] On Sartenaer see note 85 the Vocabulaire
[32] See a recent memorial to him (died “10 mars 2007, à l’âge de 93“)
[33] On Mwenze 1925-1995 see http://www.congonline.com/Peinture/mwenze.htm
[34] Unlike the others mentioned, Kabinda has left no trace on the Internet. While it is probably true that he was one of the “many” who were attracted by Desfossés’ atelier, his having been part of that school of painting may be imagined.
[35] This is a guess. Part of the sentence I cannot transcribe and I don’t know what he meant by kuamisha.
[36] This seem to resolve some of the confusion about the “Aron” mentioned above in par. 14. He was a relative of the Aron who was part of the Desfossés school.
[37] “He” refers to Kasongo who, I now realize, must have left us without giving a sign (at the end of par.11.
[38] Kabinda says ataulisha, in the third person singular, but he means “they,” the Europeans he talked about.
[39] I could not find the meaning of papier pistole.
[40] Kabinda says kasa, which I take to be his pronunciation of the verb –kaza, to make an effort.
[41] Here I bungled, saying alimufunza instead of alimifundisha but Kabinda’s response shows that he got my meaning.
[42] A kind of tool shed, hence the name “Hangar” by which Desfossés’ school became known.
[43] I seem to remember that this Lumuna was one of the upper-level Congolese employees (of, or around, the mining company) I met during my stay in Kolwezi.
[44] Kabinda pronounces this somewhat like pilibee.
[45] I think I have heard expression iko peupe, lit. a place that is white, clear, also used in the sense, “that’s clear,” or “of course.”
[46] I used the term sujet, subject or theme (of a painting), in contrast to what Kabinda calls the fond, ground or background. Notice that he uses mambo, matter(s), as a Swahili gloss for sujet.
[47] Though I make an attempt, much of the preceding is impossible to translate, in part because on the recording much of what Kabinda says remains incomprehensible and could not be transcribed. Many phrases may have made sense at the time because we had the painting he uses an illustration of his style before us. Furthermore, I don’t understand what exactly he means by kuach(i)a, to leave (something for someone);  I translated it as “I no longer do.”
[48] Here I try “disregard” for kuachia – what one has to subtract, as it were, from one style to make it the same as another: Kabinda’s is like Kanyemba’s style minus the lines that Kanyemba uses for decorating the background.
[49] What Kabinda doesn’t mind is that by training students he trains his competitors.
[50] By mistake I use the passive form, ulizaliwa, you were born.
[51] “This one” would imply that his second son was present when we talked but I have no memory of that.
[52] Kabinda says kuuza, to buy but this must be a mistake, given the context (a mistake that is made frequently, much like confusing funda and funza/fundisha, learn and teach).
[53] The French term peinture should be translated as painting, the object or the activity, but the following shows that Kabinda speaks of paint, the material.
[54]About mukanda, which is a Luba term, see the long article in Van Avemaet and Mbuya 1954:227-8.
[55] Another translation that is informed by guess work (informed by ethnography). Also, it is clear by now that mukanda means four things, at least: The institution of boys’ initiation, the rituals that go with it (such as the round-up of candidates), circumcision itself, and the hut away from the village where the boys were in seclusion.
[56] As Kabinda pronounces it (with the variations shimba, nsimba, simba), the term is the current word in Katanga Swahili for civet-cat (a loan from Luba, see Van Avermaet and Mbuya 1954:611), but here it means the furnace used for smelting metals, constructed in the effigy of a simba, lion (see below).
[57] Kabinda says mu kinywa, into the mouth, but that must be a slip of the tongue.
[58] I heard kimu instead of kyuma.
[59] The dictionaries translate both shoka and the French hache as axe or adze, but in current use it usually refers to hoes used in the fields.
[60] Referring to Ilona Szombati (“I. S.” below) who had joined us at this point.
[61] Phrase probably in Luba, going on the intonation.
[62] Part of this is incomprehensible on the recording and I don’t understand what tulikuyaka, lit. we used to come, means in this context. It is possible that he meant what he says in the following: kuitulya, lit. to eat from us.
[63] Throughout, nyama, can mean animal(s) or game in general as well as antelope specifically. In this context, the latter seems appropriate.

[Introduction]

[Text One]

[Text Two]

[Text Three]

[Text Four]

[Text Five]

[Text Six]

[Text Seven]

[Text Eight]

[Text Nine]

[LPCA Home Page]


© Johannes Fabian
The URL of this page is: http://www.lpca.socsci.uva.nl/aps/vol12/katangagenrepainting2.html
Deposited at APS: 6 October 2009
Updated: 24 December 2009(hyperlinks to Texts 4-9 added)