1. F: Leo tunasumbulia kiloko: na Baba: aah: Kayaba vile vile mais:
K: Kimuni/
F: Kimuni/
N: Raymond/
F: Kimuni Kayaba/
K: mm/
F: Raymond: Baba Raymond/
K: mm/
F: eeh: na yee: superviseur: eh: sous-régional hapa:
N: ya hapa Lubumbashi.
F: [overlapping] Lubumbashi/ ya: Jamaa Takatifu mu Afrika/ eeh: kila mara kama mu: minasungumuza na baba fulani fulani minaanza tu na majibu: sawa: mbele: juu ya maisha yako kiloko/ ni kusema uli: ulizaliwa hapa mu Lubumbashi?
N: hapana/
K: hapana/ mi nilizikiwa: zone ya Kongolo:
F: Kongolo? eh/
K: collectivité ya Mbulula/
F: kule/ mm/ na ulifika hapa kwa: ulikuwa kijana ao: ao:
K: minafika hapa naisha kuwa muntu na âge/
F: na âge/
K: mm/
F: kufika ku nani: kutafuta kazi ao?
K: hapana: ilikuwa juu ya magonjwa:
F: ahah/
K: kwa kuya kutundisha mama/
F: eheh/
K: na yee kiisha kuya kutundisha mama: mama alionekana musaifu: namna ya kutumika kazi ya ku mukini haikuwezikana/
F: mm/ kule ku mukini mulikuwa ku: m: mulimazi ao: ao?
K: mbele nilikuwa vendeur:
F: vendeur?
K: mm/
F: ahah/
K: natumika kama kiisha indépendant:
F: eh/
K: fujo ya indépendant minakwenda ku mugini fanya mulimayi lakini maisha ku mugini ilikuwaya hapana/
F: mm/
K: minarudia tena mu kizungu/
F: eyo/
K: njo ile sasa/
F: uli: ulizaliwa: ulizalikwa mwaka gani?
K: nilizalikwa mu mwaka mille neuf cent vingt- huit/
F: vingt-huit?
K: mm/
F: ahah: vingt-huit/ kumbe lu: luga yako: yako ya kwanza ilikuwa kiLuba kule ku...?...
K: hapana/ kiHemba/
F: kiHemba/ c’est ça/
K: bena Nyembo/
F: oui/ shee: bazungu tunasema baLuba Hemba:
N: mm/
K: mm/
F: mais: inaachana/ c’est ça/ [pauses] ulifika hapa Lubumbashi: mu mwaka: environ?
K: mu septante-et-un/
F: septante-et-un/
K: mm/
F: donc: eh [pauses] eeh:
N: il ya a quatorze ans/
F: il ya quatorze ans/
N: oui/
F to N: na wee uli: uliisha kusalikwa uli....
K: ...bote nilibaacha/ yee alipata certificat ya école primaire:
F: iko kule: kule Kongolo?
K: Kongolo ah/
F: aah/
K: bote...?...Kongolo/
F: na hapa uliingia mu nani: mu eeh: secondaire?
K and N: secondaire/
F: secondaire/ kiisha Faculté...
N: kiisha ...?...tuko campus/
F: campus: Faculté des Lettres/
N: mm/
F: ulipata diplôme/
K: eeh/
N: mm: ku licentiat ni aah langue et literature latine/
F: oui c’est ça/
N: oui/
F: c’est ça/ bon/ eeh: muko tena na batoto: muko ngapi: mu: mu Jamaa?
K: batoto yangu? bote?
F: ndiyo/
K: bote beko mu Jamaa beko sept/
F: sept?
N: mm/
F: bote banafwata?
K: ndiyo/
N: mm: bote wanafwata/
F: bale bote banafwata/ aah/ très bien/
K: eh: mutoto yangu ya kwanza:
F: ahah:
K: ni Mudumu/ sectionnaire/
F: ahah/
N: mm/
K: eeh/ allez: mutoto yangu ya pili: secrétaire: comité familial/ iko yee Nyembo/
F: njo yee?
N: mm/
K: mutoto yangu ya tatu: iko délégué:
N: ...?...
K: section ya: nani?
N: délégué stationnaire: des jeunes/
K: de jeunes/
F: eheh:
N: ilikuwa sous-région/
K: sous-région eeh/ bale njo batoto baiisha kuwa na amri: bale bengine batoto wanafwata kama vile membres/
F: c’est ça/
K: mm/
 

1. F: Today we are having a chat with Baba – let’s see – (his name is also) Kayaba. (not Nyembo but...
K: Kimuni.
F: Kimuni.
N: Raymond.
F: Kimuni Kayaba.
K: Mm.
F: Raymond, Baba Raymond.
K: Mm.
F: Yes, and he is the superviseur sous-régional here.
N: Here in Lubumbashi.
F: [overlapping Lubumbashi. Of the Jamaa Takatifu mu Afrika.[1] Now, whenever I have a conversation with a baba (of the Jamaa) I begin with questions[2] (to find out) a little about your life. Where you born here in Lubumbashi?
N: No.
K: No, I was born in the zone of Kongolo.
F: Kongolo? I see.
K: Collectivité Mbulula.
F: Over there, mm. And you arrived here as a young man, or?
K: When I came to this place I was of a certain age.
F: Of a certain age.
K: Mm.
F: You came looking for work, or?
K: No, it was for reasons of health.
F: I see.
K: To get medical care for mama.
F: I see.
K: And when this was taken care of and mama seemed well it turned out it was impossible to find work back in the village.
F: Mm, back in the village you were a farmer, or?
K: I started out as a trader.
F: A trader?
K: Mm.
F: I see.
K: That was my work until Independence.
F: Yes.
K: What with the mess around Independence I went to stay in the village and worked as a farmer but there was no way to make a living in the village.
F: Mm.
K: So I went back to town.[3]
F: I see.
K: That’s where I am today.
F: What was your year of birth?
K: I was born in 1928.
F: ’28?
K: Mm.
F: I see, ’28. So your language, your first language was kiLuba?
K: No, kiHemba.
F: KiHemba, right.
K: (I belong to the group called) Bena Nyembo.
F: Yes. We Europeans call them Luba Hemba.
N: Mm.
K: Mm.
F: But there is a difference (between Luba and Hemba). Alright, [pauses] you came to Lubumbashi around which year?
K: In ’71.
F: In ’71.
K: Mm.
F: So, [pauses] let’s see.
N: Fourteen years ago.
F: Fourteen years ago.
N: Yes.
F: [to N] And you were born ...
K: ...I left all (my children) there. He graduated from elementary school.
F: That was there in Kongolo?
K: In Kongolo, yes.
F: I see.
K: All of them (were in) Kongolo.
F: [to N] And here (in Lubumbashi) you started secondary school?
K and N: Secondary school.
F: After secondary school it was the University...
N: ...after that it was the campus.
F: The campus, at the Faculty of Letters.
N: Mm.
F: (Where) you got your diploma.
K: Yes.
N: Mm. A degree in Latin Language and Literature.
F: Yes, right.
N: Yes.
F: Right, fine. Let’s see. [to K] You have other children. How many of them are in the Jamaa?
K: My children? (You mean) all of them?
F: Yes.
K: They are all in the Jamaa, seven of them.
F: Seven?
N: Mm.
F: (And) all are members?
K: Yes.
N: Mm, all of them are members.
F: All of them are members, I see. Great.
K: My first-born...
F: Yes.
K: ...is Mudumu, a section-supervisor.
F: I see.
N: Mm.
K: Yes. My second is secretary of the comité familial. That’s him here, Nyembo.
F: That’s him?
N: Mm.
K: My third one is a delegate.
N: ...?...
K: What is the section (again)?
N: He is the station delegate for the youth.
K: The youth.
F: I see.
N: What used to be the sous-région.
K: The sous-région, yes. Those are the children who have leadership positions, the others are just members.
F: That’s it.
K: Mm.

2. F: sasa: ulikuta: Jamaa: mu mwanzo: mwanzo kabisa ulikuta wapi?
K: mwanzo ya mi kwanza Jamaa: nilianza Jamaa Kongolo/
F: eheh/
K: mille neuf cent soixante/
F: soixante déjà?
K: eheh/ ku mwezi ya tatu/
F: ah/
K: nilipeleka Jamaa Kongolo: Baba Hubert
Brik/ na Emili: Soké/
F: Soké?
K: eheh/
F: Emile Soké: ni muzungu?
K: hapana/
N: hapana/
K: muntu meusi/
F: mweusi/
K: ....?...
F: eh: ule: ule jina ingine?
K: Kala/ Emile Kala/
F: Kala/ Kala Emile/
K: hh/
F: na bo balitoka wapi?
K: bo: Emile Kala ...?...iko mutoto wa Baba [pauses] Katamba Benjamin:
F: Katamba Benjamin:
K: eheh/ eh Hubert Brik iko mutoto wa Baba: ah: Ka: Kaumba Valentin/
F: Hubert?
K: Brik/
N: [correcting K] Urbain/
F: Urbain?
K: eeh/
N: eh: Biliki/
F: Biliki?
K: aah/
N: mm/ non: ...?... jina yake na ?ndeko ku...
F: ah: c’est ça/ c’est ça/
N: eko kule/
F: Urbain Biliki: ah/
N: mm/
F: ...?...mutoto yake ya Baba: Baba...
K: ...Baba Valentin Kaumba/
F: c’est ça/
K: mm/
F: mm/
K: kumbe ni yee baba yangu: nilitolea mawazo yangu yote...?...
F: c’est ça/
K: na Mama: Maria/
F: Mama Maria/
K: Ngonge/
F: Ngonge: c’est ça/ na: ile ilikuw mu soixante?
K: mu soixante: mupaka: eh: septante-et-un:
F: c’est ça/
K: minatoka nakuya hapa Lubumbashi/
F: mu ile wakati: mulikutana na Baba Placide? hapana/
K: mi Baba Placide sikumuona macho/
F: hapana/ hapana/
K: mi sikumuona macho: minabakia paka na foto yake/
F: tena: [pauses] nazani Thomas alikuelezea: kama mi nilianza kazi yangu juu ya Jamaa: nilianza mu soixante-six/
K: mu soixante-six/
F: mm/ donc: Baba Placide aliisha: kutoka:
K: mm/
F: mais tulionana naye mara mingi mu Belgique/
K: eeh/
F: mm? alikuwa tu kubakia ku Belgique: eh: siwezi: kama unajua: mais: alikuwa tu sawa: ts: mi siseme kufunga mais: alikuwa mu résidence:
K: mm/
F: surveillée/
K: mm/
F: ile wakati/ 

2. F: Now, where was your very first contact with the Jamaa?
K: My beginning in the Jamaa – I started out in the Jamaa in Kongolo.
F: I see.
K: In 1960.
F: Already in ’60?
L: Yes, in March.
F: I see.
K: To the Jamaa at Kongolo I brought along Baba Hubert Brik and Emile Soké.
F: Soké?
K: Yes.
F: Emile Soké – is he a European? [4]
K: No.
N: No.
K: He is a black person.
F: A black person.
K: ...?...
F: And what was the other name?
K: Kala. Emile Kala.
F: Kala. Emile Kala.
K: Yes.
F: And where did they come from?
K: They – Emile Kala is a child (by initiation) of Baba [pauses] Katamba Benjamin.
F: Katamba Benjamin.
K: Yes. And Hubert Brik is a child of Baba Kaumba Valentin.
F: Hubert?
K: Brik.
N: [correcting K] Urbain.
F: Urbain?
K: Yes.
N: Yes. Biliki.
F: Biliki?
K: Yes.
N: Mm. No, his name ...?... is from...
F: Ah, that’s it. That’s it.
N: ...from that region.
F: Urbain Biliki, yes.
N: Mm.
F: And he was the child of Baba...
K: ...Baba Kaumba Valentin.
F: Right.
K: Mm.
F: Mm.
K: He is my father (through initiation), to him I offered all my thoughts...[5]
F: That’s it.
K: And to Mama Maria.
F: Mama Maria.
K: Ngonge.
F: Ngonge, right. And that was in ’60?
K: In ’60. Until ’71.
F: Right.
K: (That’s when) I left and came here to Lubumbashi.
F: Did you and Baba Placide meet during that time? No.
K: I never saw Baba Placide (with my) eyes.
F: No. No.
K: I never actually saw him, I just had his photograph.
F: Another thing [pauses] – I believe Thomas explained to you that I started my work on the Jamaa in ’66.
K: In ’66.
F: Mm. So, Baba Placide had already left.
K: Mm.
F: But we did see each other more than once in Belgium.
K: I see.
F: Mm? He was living in Belgium. I am not sure whether you know (this) but he was -- I wouldn’t call it locked up but he was under house...
K: Mm.
F: ...arrest.
K: Mm.
F: At the time.
 

3. na: déjà mu soixante-six: tulisikia habari ya matata kubwa sana mu Kongolo/
K: mm: mm/
F: askofu:
K: mm/
F: alianza kuwafukuza bantu/ non? c’est vrai?
K: ni vrai/
N: mm/
K: ni vile/ Père ?Diagre: Yosef Aliagre:
F: mm/
K: ni ule alianza kufundisha bantu/
N: mm/ Deyagre
K: Deyagre/
N: alikuwa nani:
K: ku mission...
N: ...alikuwa mu mission à Sola: bon: ba: trente-cinq kilomètres à Kongolo/
F: oui/
K: eheh/
N: sasa mule: alifukuza: ku: baba inne: wa nani: wa Jamaa:
F: oui/
K: balikuwa ...?.../
F: oui/
N: sasa: akawafukuza ...?...sakramenta: balikuwa excommuniés/
F: déjà mu soixante eh...
N: ... njo soixante-six/
K: soixante-six/
F: soixante-six: oui: oui/
N: mm/
F: ile: ile wakati nilikuwa Musonoi/
N: eheh/
K: Musonoi/
N: kiisha kuwafukuza pale: sasa: aliona: bon: eeh: mécontentement wa baba ingine/
F: mm/
N: ...?... ni nani: ...?...siku wa kusanya ingine: sasa njo: ule nani: Père nani Joseph Deyagre: bon: aka: akabaita tena/
F: Deyagre?
N: eeh/
K: Deyagre/
F: donc: muzungu/
K: muzungu/
N: njo: aka...
F: ...na askofu alikuwa nani?
N: ...?... Gustave Bouve
F: Bouve/
N: oui/
F: mm/
K: sasa njo akama: akamata sema ya nani: bababa: akatuma baba moya huku Lubumbashi: baba mweningine bakamutuma nani: zone ya Kabalo: donc: alibatuma fasi mbali mbali/
F: mm/
K: na ile fasi yake aliba: eeh: alitu: baita asema hakuna Jamaa iko muzuri/
F: eeh/  
N: eeh/ njo alibatuma kule:
F: mm/
N: ...?... alikuwa kusambaisha asema: wanaanza Jamaa à côté/
F: alibafukuza bote?
N: eeh/ parce que...
F: ...alifukuza ni kusema:
N: non:
F: ni kusema nini? exactement/ a: asema: habawezi kufika tena mu ekle: eklesia ya kupata sa: eh: sakramenta?
N: mm/
F: donc: exommunication?
K and N: mm oui/
N: ...?... excommunication:
K: eheh/
N: njo akaba: akabarappeler tena/
F: c’est ça/
N: kiisha barappeler: njo sema ...?...sema mutation/
F: mutation/
N: mm/
          

3. And (something else), already in ’66 we had news of big trouble in Kongolo.
K: Mm, mm.
F: The bishop...
K: Mm.
F: ... started to expel people, no? Is that true?
K: It is true.
N: Mm.
K: Right. Father Diagre.[6] Joseph Aliagre:
F: Mm.
K: He was the one you began expel people.
N: Mm. Deyagre.
K: Deyagre.
N: He was...
K: ... at the mission...
N: ...he was at the mission in Sola, about 35 km from Kongolo.
F: Yes.
K: Yes.
N: There he expelled four babas[7] of the Jamaa.
F: Yes.
K: They were...?...
F: Yes.
N: He threw them out and (denied them) the sacraments, they were excommunicated.
F: Already in ’60...
N ...that was in ’66.
K: In ’66.
F: ’66, yes, yes.
N: Mm.
F: At that time I was in Musonoi.
N: Yes.
K: Musonoi.
N: Then, after he had expelled them, he observed that the other babas were annoyed.
F: Mm.
N: ...?... So, one day when it came to another meeting this Père Joseph Deyagre called them back.
 
F: Deyagre?
N: Yes.
K: Deyagre.
F: So (with that name) he was European?
K: A European.
N: Then he...
F: ...and who was the bishop?
N: ...?... Gustave Bouve.
F: Bouve.
N: Yes.
F: Mm.
K: Then he singled out (those four) babas and sent them away, one of them here to Lubumbashi, another baba was sent to the zone Kabalo. In other words, he sent them to different places.
F: Mm.
K: And wherever he sent them he proclaimed there is no such thing as a good Jamaa.
F: Yes.
N: Yes. He sent them away.
F: Mm.
N: ... he kept accusing them, saying they were starting a Jamaa on the sly.
F: He expelled all of them?
N: Yes, because...
F: ... he expelled them, that is to say...
N: No.
F: Meaning he did what exactly? Was it that they could no longer come to church and receive the sacraments?
N: Mm.
F: In other words, (it meant) excommunication.
K and N: Mm, yes.
N: ...excommunication.
K: Yes.
N: And then he called them back.
F: Right.
N: After he had called them back he told them about the transfer.
F: A transfer.
N: Mm.

4. F: sasa wee baba uliona ile mambo ...?...ulikuwa déjà njia ya tatu ao?
K: bado/ si hapa ...?... mawazo ya tatu/ hata njia ya kwanza siyapata/
F: bado/
K: hata ya pili bado/ mi nilitoka: Kongolo: mi siyapata njia ya kwanza bado/
F: aah/ donc: uliingia mu njia ya kwanza hapa?
K: naingia njia ya kwanza minakuwa kupata hapa/
F: kwa Baba Kaumba?
K: kwa Baba Kaumba:
F: mm/
K: na njia ya pili minapata hapa kwa Baba Kaumba:
F: mm/
K: na njia ya tatu minakuwa kupata hapa kwa Abbé Tshimanga/
F: Tshimanga?
N: Tshimanga David/
K: David/
F: aah oui/ ule:
K: ...?...
N: eko Kananga/
K: eh ku Mbuji Mayi/
N: eh: Mbuji Mayi ...?...
F: c’est ça/
K: aah/
F: c’est ça/
K: hh/
N: mm/
K: ku mikono ya: Gustave:
F: ahah/
K: ka: nani: Kibumba/
N: Tshibumba/
K: na Kalala Pascal/
F: mais sasa: habana tena mapères juu ya kuingisha mu njia tatu/
K: bale?
F: haba maabbés wa...
K: bote sasa bekoamo: banakataza/
F: banakataza/
K: eeh/
F: banakataza/ Jamaa: zamani ilikuwa: mulikuwa na nani: Be: Père Bertin:
K: mm/
F: ah nani: Damase: hata/ Damase ulifahamu?
K: Damase alikuwa anaingiza njia ya tatu:
F: oui/
K: na Père Somers/
F: [overlapping] na Somers: Somers/
K: Somers: alikuwa njia ya tatu: sasa: alikuwa napeleka hapana bote na njia tatu: depuis quatre: septante-trois:
F: oui/
K: ingiza kwa:
F: ile:
K: fichie:
F:oui/
K: ni Abbé Bwengo/
F: Bwengo?
K: Bwengo/ Abbé Bwengo/
F: mm/ simufahamu/
K: eko mm:
N: ...?...
K: Zairois eko Manono/
F: ku Manono/
N: mm/
K: nani: mm: paroisse ya mu: mu: Kwanga/
N: mm/
F: eeh/
N: mm/
 

4. F: When you observed that affair, baba, had you already reached the third grade (of initiation)?
K: Not yet. I had not reached the third grade, not even the first.
F: Not yet.
K: Or the second. When I left Kongolo I had not reached the first grade[8] yet.
F: I see. So you entered the first grade here?
K: I entered and completed the first grade here.
F: With Baba Kaumba?
K: With Baba Kaumba.
F: Mm.
K: The second grade I also reached with Baba Kaumba.
F: Mm.
K: And the third grade I got with Abbé Tshimanga.
F: Tshimanga?
N: Tshimanga David.
K: David.
F: Ah yes, the one...
K: ...?...
N: He is in Kananga.
K: Eh, in Mubuji-Mayi.
N: Yes, Mbuji-Mayi...?...
F: That’s it.
K: Yes.
F: That’s it.
K: Yes.
N: Mm.
K: Guided by Gustave.
F: I see.
K: What (was his other name) -- Kibumba.
N: Tshibumba.
K: And Kalala Pascal.
F: But nowadays there are no longer any priests who are initiated in the third grade.
K: Those?
F: The priests who...
K: They are still around but they are forbidden to (initiate).
F: They are forbidden.
K: Yes.
F: They are forbidden. In the past the Jamaa had Father Bertin.
K: Mm.
F: And who else? (Father) Damase. Damase, did you know him?
F: Damase used to initiate into the third grade.
F: Yes.
K: And Father Somers.
F: [overlapping] And Somers. Somers.
K: Somers was third grade. But then he no longer brought everyone to the third grade. Since ’73...
F: Yes.
K: ...initiation went on...
F: That.[9]
K: ...secretly.
F: Yes.
K: That was Abbé Bwengo.
F: Bwengo?
K: Bwengo. Abbé Bwengo.
F: Mm. I don’t know him.
K: He is...
N: ...?...
K: A Zairian, living in Manono.
F: In Manono.
N: Mm.
K: In the parish of Kwanga.
N: Mm.
F: I see.
N: Mm.
 

5. F: bon/ donc: ni kusema: ile: sawa miaka [pauses] ni kusema uliku: ulikuta Jamaa: mwanzo mu soixante:
K: nilianza kama mu soixante...
F: eeh: ulikuwa dis: kui: ...?.. disons ulikuwa tus sawa sympa: sympathisant ao? ulikuwa kufundi: kufwe: kufwata mafundisho déjà?
K: ni vile mais: ndiyo: nilianza kufwata mafundisho/
F: miaka kumi?
K: eheh/
N: sasa: ngambo ya kule:
F: mm/
N: kwa kupata njia ...?...
K: kulikuwa ku ugumu/ sababu hatukuwa na: mu: umu: père karibu ya mi ya kuwa na uwezo kuleta batu ma: mabaraka/
F: ahaah/
K: lakini mingi ilikuwa vile kama vile kama vile muntu mi ya kuweza kufundisha: na njia...
N: mm/
K: ...kama alikuwa nafundisha watoto: anafanya: mais: lakini sikuwa bado kupata njia/
F: c’est ça/
K: sasa pale minafika hapa: mais: mu ’73: banafukuza Jamaa inje:
F: mm/
K: mais/ wanaanza kufanya vile: sisi hatukujua kitu/
F: eh/
K: tunafwata vile kikondoo/
F: eheh/
K: tunajua kitu gani: bapères na: na baJamaa mu kitu gani ...?... ?transcript ya Kolwezi: ku hivi: paka hivi: mais...
F: c’est ça/
K: ... hapa tunatoka: sisi wote tunabakia: Baba Kaumba anaanza kutuformer si/
F: mm/
K: anaanza kuformer: anaita: monsieur: Baba: Abbé Bwengo:
F: mm/
K: ku kuingiza groupe ya kwanza: njia tatu/ kwa groupe ya pili ...?... kuwa wa sisi/
F: mm/
K: tunakuya: mwisho ...?... sécret inaonekana: kwa Monseigneur: Monseigneur anamuattaquer Bwengo: banatufukuza/ sema hapana: hapa tena hatutafanya/
F: mm/
K: tunabakia/ mi nabakia paka vile njia ya pili:
F: mm/
K: iko naongezeka na watoto wa Mungu banaanza kuendelesha/ bali: tulianza kuendelesha bale watoto wa Mungu: bon: Baba Pascal Kalala na: Kimumbu: baliona mwendo wetu vile tu anakwenda: bon: bo banafanya/ si hatukujua mambo vile iko na kitu ku comité yabo eh?
F: eheh/
K: eh/ balifanya pale tunasikia paka fujo/
F: ndiyo/
K: eeh: si: minakwenda kwa baba muzazi: Baba Yungu:
F: mm/
K: uliza baba: ni nje/ tunasikia makelele iko mingi: asema ah: mutoto fanya nguvu/
F: mm/
K: inafaa kufanya nguvu: kuomba: kila siku: kufanya kintu gani/ hapana kuregea/ nakuya kuomba tena asema baba minapenda kama vile banasema tunapashwa kwenda tu ku: bapères: tu ba: tubu/
F: ndiyo/
K: hapa baba anasema hapana/ ile yote iko mambo kiloko/ fanya tu/ et puis: Kalala ananiiata: anasema mi niliona weye: ...?...sisi tunafanya former: tuna: comité: notre...?...
N: ...comité de rencontre/
K: comité de rencontre:
F: hii sisi ni nani? sisi: ni kusema?
N: non/ eeh: Baba nani: Baba Pascal:
K: eeh/
F: [overlapping] ahah/
N: Baba nani: Gustave:
K: Gustave: [pauses] Baba Ngoi:
N: Baba Ngoi/
K: eeh: Banza Fortunat/
N: mm/
K: eeh: v
F: Banza Fortunat?
K: eeh/
N: Fortunat/
K: Fortunat eh/ eeh: nani: Baba Mbuyu Charles: [corrects himself] eh: Mbuyu Pascal:
N: mm/
K: eeh: mm:
N: Baba Ghislain?
K: ah:
N: huyo wakati bado?
K: bado mm/ eh: Tumbayo:
N: mm/
K: eheh/ Alexandre/ wale wote wanafanya comité: wanatembea mu mazones yote anaharabi?mika: asema eh: sisi tuko peupe/ tunapenda kufa ao kufanya kupona/
F: mais: hatuwezi kutubu ao...
K: hatuwezi kutubu: hatufanye yote/
F: c’est ça/
K: bale batoto benye kuwa na amu/ amu ile wa kuwfata mafundisho ya Père Placide: kufwata bila kuchoka: hali/
F: mm/
K: ku yee ni kwetu/
F: ile mambo bana: bana: banaomba ku: bana: banaweka mu: mu: mu kutubu/
K eh kutubu/
F: sasa banani banafanya vile?
K: ah [claps] ah si tunaitwa/ tunakwenda kuitika: tunafwata ile yote: mais: banafanya nguvu yabo: kutafuta: ni nani wa kuweza mabaraka/
F: mm/
K: kuleta kuingiza watu njia ya tatu/
F: c’est ça/
K: kufanya hukuako/ mais: banaita: Abbé Tshimanga/
F: mm/
K: tunapata njia ya tatu/
F: mm/
K: ...?...pata njia ya tatu: directement: nazani...
F: ...ilikuwa mu sawa ku septante?
N: ilikuwa septante-neuf/
F: septante-neuf?
N: minapata njia ya tatu/
K: mm/ septante-neuf/
F: eheh/
K: mwezi wa munane le vingt/
 

5. F: Alright, during those years [pauses] – in other words, you came upon the Jamaa first in ’60.
K: I started around ’60.
F: Yes. (At that time) you were something like a sympathizer, right? Did you already follow their teaching?
K: That’s right, yes. I began to follow their teaching.
F: For ten years?
K: Yes.
N: In that part (of the country)...
F: Mm.
N: ...it was difficult to get initiated.
K: It was difficult because we didn’t have a priest nearby who had the authority to give people the blessings.
F: I see.
K: Nevertheless, among the many (initiated members) there would have been a person able to teach me (and prepare) for a grade...
N: Mm.
K: ...when such a person instructed candidates he did that. But I hadn’t made a grade yet.[10]
F: That’s it.
K: Then I arrived here (in Lubumbashi) but in ’73 they expelled the Jamaa (from the Catholic church).
F: Mm.
K: That was what they were doing. We had no idea (what it was about).
F: Yes.
K: We followed like a herd of sheep.
F: Yes.
K: We didn’t know what this was about between the priests and the people of the Jamaa. There...?... were reports from Kolwezi about this but...
F: That’s it.
K: ...here (in Lubumbashi) we just left (the church) and all of us went on with Baba Kaumba who became our teacher.
F: Mm.
K: He became our teacher and called on Baba Abbé Bwengo...
F: Mm.
K: ... to initiate the first group into third grade. We were in the second group.
F: Mm.
K: In the end our secret was revealed to Monseigneur (Kabanga). Monseigneur attacked Bwengo and we were expelled. No, we said, we are not going to do this any longer.
F: Mm.
K: We remained (steadfast). I persevered in the second grade.
F: Mm.
K: This grew and God’s children moved forward. Baba Pascal Kalala and (Baba) Kimumbu saw to it that we made progress. But we did not know what was going on in their committee, you understand?
F: Yes.
K: Then we heard that all they did was fighting.
F: Yes.
K: Yes. So I went to my own father, Baba Yungu.
F: Mm.
K: Asking him, Baba, this is way above my head, all that noise we hear. He said, remain strong, my child.
F: Mm.
K: You must remain strong, praying every day and doing whatever it takes. Don’t give up. I kept praying. Then I told my father, they say that we must go to the priests to repent, I’d like to do that.
K: That’s when father said, no, there is not much to this affair, just go on. And then Kalala called for me. He said, I observed you. We are forming a committee...
N: ... (called) committee of encounter.
K: Committee of encounter.
F: Who was “we?” We, meaning who?
N: No, (wait).[11] Eh, Baba Pascal (Kalala).
K: Yes.
F: [overlapping] I see.
N: Baba Gustave.
K: Gustave, [pauses] and Baba Ngoi.
N: Baba Ngoi.
K: Let’s see, Banza Fortunat.
N: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: Banza Fortunat?
K: Yes.
N: Fortunat.
K: Fortunat, yes. And -- who else? – Baba Mbuyu Charles, [corrects himself] Mbuyu Pascal.
N: Mm.
K: Yes, mm.
N: Baba Ghislain?
K: No.
N: Not at that time?
K: Not yet, mm. And Tumbayo.
N: Mm.
K: Yes, Alexandre. They all formed the committee and went around to all the parts of town where it had come to a break (with the church), saying, we are without blame. We want to die or set things right again.
F: But we cannot repent or...
K: We cannot repent. We will not go through all this.[12]
F: That’s it.
K: Those children have one desire, which is to follow the teachings of Father Placide, follow them untiringly, whatever the circumstances may be.
F: Mm.
K: Our place is with him.
F: Those things they asked for and put on the list of abjurations.
K: Of abjurations.
F: Who put up with this?
K: Well [claps], we were called in and we went there to show obedience, all that we followed. However, at the same time, an effort was made to find some (priest) who was entitled to give blessings.
F: Mm.
K: To initiate people into the third grade.
F: That's it.
K: Around here there was no one who could do it. But they called Abbé Tshimanga.
F: Mm.
K: And we got the third grade.
F: Mm.
K: ...?... we got the third grade right away, I believe...
F: ...that was around '70?
N: It was '79.
F: '79?
N: When I got the third grade.
K: Mm. '79.
F: I see.
K: On August 20.
 

6. bon/ sasa kiisha kidogo: mu septante: mu quatre-vingt:
N: mm/
K: [claps] Baba Kibumbu Gustave na [claps] na Baba Kalala: allez/ wanakwenda kwa Monseigneur/ [pause] wanatubu/
F: banatubu?
K: mm/
N: iko mu quatre-vingt un/
K: quatre-vingt-et-un/
N: quatre-vingt-et-un/
F: quatre-vingt-et-un/
N: oui/
F: sasa: nilibaona mu groupe charismatique/
K: eh/
N: ndiyo/
K: eh/
F: njo kazi yabo sasa?
K: njo kazi yabo sasa/ na si tukaona: mm mm/ tunauliza wababa: tunauliza: hii mu njia hapana/ wababa wanasema pfff: ile haina na njia yetu/ ile haina njia yetu/
F: ndiyo/ ndiyo/ minaona/ sasa: bon: tuendelee mu: mu: septante-neuf mulipata: mulipata njia ya tatu:
K: mm/
F: kumbe: groupe ilikuwa: ilikuwa: donc: complète/
N: mm/
F: ilikuwa ku:
K: mm/
F: njia ya: tatu/
K: mm/
F: sasa: Baba: Baba Valentin mu hii: mi sisikie vizuri/
N: mm/
K: ahah/
F: position yake/ banasema tu: kintu moya: kintu ingine: etcetera etcetera/
K: Baba Valentin anasema hivi asema kama: mi sitatoke ku Catholique/
F: c'est ça/ sawa vile:
K: mm/
F: tuli: tuli: tulisikia mu Kolwezi...
N: ahah/
F: ...nani: ma: Mama Monique:
K: mm/
N: eheh/
F: Kabole:
K: mm/
N: mm/
K: mm/
F: alisema vile/ mais: alitubu? non/
K: sasa ile shee hatujue: tuko nafika kule? sasa yee anabakia vile: na batu/ shee tunasema bon: sasa tuko nakwenda kule: hata kikoako ni paka kutubu/ unakwenda unapita kwa futa kufanya: maungamo:
F: mm/
K: asema hapana/ wee hauwezi kuungana/
F: mm/
 

6. Alright. Not much later, in '70, rather in '80.
N: Mm.
K: [claps] Baba Kibumbu Gustave and [claps] Baba Kalala came to a decision. They went to Monseigneur. [pause] They repented.
F: They repented?
K: Mm.
N: That was in '81.
K: '81.
N: '81.
F: '81.
N: Yes.
F: Recently, I saw them in a group of charismatics.
K: Yes.
N: Yes.
K: Yes.
F: Is that what they are doing now?
K: That's what they are doing now. We saw that and didn't like it. We asked among the members (because we thought that) this was not our way (to go). The members said, never, that is not our way. That is not our way.
F: Yes. Yes, I see. Alright, let's go on now. In '79 you received the third grade.
K: Mm.
F: So then the group was complete.
K: Mm.
F: It was in...
K: ...mm.
F: ... the third grade.
K: Mm.
F: Now, I don't really understand where Baba Valentin was in in (all this).
N: Mm.
K: Ahah.
F: What his position was. People tell me one thing and then something else again.
K: Baba Valentin put it like this. He said I am not going to leave the Catholic (church).
F: Right, something like that.
K: Mm.
F: That's what we heard in Kolwezi...
N: Yes.
F: ... from Mama Monique.
K: Mm.
N: Yes.
F: (Monique) Kabole.
K: Mm.
N: Mm.
K: Mm.
F: She talked like that. But did she repent? No.
K: We don't know about that, we were not there, right? She and others just went on (with the Jamaa). We said alright and went there (and what we found was) only people who had repented. You would go and visit and try to call a meeting.
F: Mm.
K: They said, no, you can't have a meeting.
F: Mm.

7. K: mais mi nilizala mutoto: moya: ku ...?...nani?
N: ...?...na nani? Kabonge/
K: Kabonge: minapeleka yeye ku wapères/
F: ku wapères?
N: ...?.../
K: ...?... kusema kama wafanye: ubatizo/
N: [overlapping] ubatizo/
K: wanasema hapana/
F: hapana?
K: weye: paka: unafanya nini? wee uko kichwa: uko na: fwata mafundisho: ile ya Jamaa/...?...
F: ...ile ilikuwa mu mwaka gani?
K: iko mu...
N: septante-cinq/
K: septante-cinq/
F: septante-cinq déjà/
K: ahah/ wanakatala mutoto yangu ubatizo/ mais: Théophile/ ule:
N: muloko...
K: ... muloko yake ya yee/
F: [to N] muloko yako?
K: [answering for N] eh/
F: mwenye kufwata wee?
K: eeh/ mwenye kufwata yee/
N: [overlapping] ...?...ile délégué des jeunes/
F: eheh/
K: délégué des jeunes: sasa yee naye: alikuwa na njia hata ku séminaire/ alipenda kuingia kazi ya: père/
F: oui/
K: na tena alikuwa: acolyte/
N: na alikuwa acolyte/
K: alikuwa acolyte:
F: acolyte?
N: alikuwa mu Ruashi/
K: alikuwa mu Ruashi:
F: eheh/
K: alifanya/ anafanya démarches yake yote: namna ya kuingia ku wapères:
F: eeh/
K: ...?...balikuya nayo huku: banamuandika jina: mais banamuambia: baba yako: iko Jamaa/
F: oui/ asema:
K: ...?...
F: tunakatala/
K: weye: toka/ na mutoto tangu hii siku alisema kumbe niye: muko: na fitina/ baba yangu: muntu mwingine/ iko na maisha yake/ na mi naye nitake kutafuta: maisha yangu/ [claps, several times] kumbe tangu lo mi naye: minakwenda: paka mi kwenda: baba yangu/ baba yangu alinizala: na sitakatala mambo ya baba yangu/ na yeye: anaanza kuya: ku ibada yetu/
F: mm/
K: pale tunaanza kufwata vile:
F: mm/
K: bon/ mutoto yangu ingine/ mwanamuke/ alizaliwa mu: septante-et-un:
N: mm/
K: na: ingine/ anazaliwa mu: [pauses] hapana/
N: ...eh eeh ?Maria...
K: ? Maria Lubumbashi soixante-sept:
N: ?Maria: eh: soixante-sept/
K: eh/ Dani:
N: Dani huyu mwanaume: njo septante-et-un/
K: ni septante-et-un/
F: mm/
K: bon: bale batoto wanaenea miaka: âge namna ya kupata prémière communion/
F: c'est ça/
K: wanafwata masomo: eh: banafwata mafundisho: mwezi mbili/
F: eheh/ ku: ku bapères?
K: ku wapères:
N: eeh/
K: eeh/ ku wapères kufwata mafundisho ya prémière communion:
F: eyo:
K: sasa wakati ku prémière communion: wanawakatalia/ asema hapana/ iko: [claps] ku Jamaa/ baba yenu ni ku Jamaa: haiwezikane/ mi nikaenda tena kufanya déclaration: banaitika/ asema iko d'accord/
F: mm/
K: bon/ kiisha yake batoto wanafanya tena mwezi mbili: wanakatala/
F: mm/
K: sema: baba yako: eko mu Jamaa/
 

7. K: (There was something else). I had a child, who was it again?
N: ...?... who was it? Kabonge.
K: Kabonge. I took him to the priests.
F: The priests?
N: ...?.../
K: ...?... (asking them) for his baptism.
N: [overlapping] Baptism.
K: They said no.
F: No?
K: What is it you keep doing? You are determined to follow those teachings of the Jamaa...
F: ...what year was that?
K: It was in...
N: '75.
K: '75.
F: In '75 already.
K: Yes. They refused baptism for my child. It was Théophile,[13] the one ...
N: ...younger brother...
K: ...(who is) his younger brother.
F: [to N] Your younger brother?
K: [answering for N] Yes.
F: The one born after you?
K: Yes. The one born after him.
N: [overlapping] ...the one who is the youth delegate.
F: I see.
K: The youth delegate. At the time he was about to enter seminary, he wanted to become a priest.
F: Yes.
K: And he was an acolyte.
N: And he was an acolyte.
F: An acolyte?
N: That's what he was in Ruashi.
K: That's what he was in Ruashi.
F: I see.
K: (That's what) he did. He took all the necessary steps for entering the priesthood.
F: I see.
K: ...?...they got as far as taking down his name but then they told him, your father is Jamaa.
F: Yes. In other words...
K: ...?...
F: ...we don't accept you.
K: You, get out of here.[14] From that day on my son told himself, this shows that you are (out to cause) discord. My father is a different person. He has his life and what I want is to find my life. [claps, several times]. Therefore, from now on I go with my father. My father gave me my life and I am not going to reject what my father does. So he, too, began to attend our liturgy.
F: Mm.
K: That's how we went on from there.
F: Mm.
K: Alright, now about another child of mine, a girl. She was born in '71.
N: Mm.
K: And another one, born in [pauses], no...
N: ...right, ?Maria...
K: ?Maria, in Lubumbashi, in '67.
N: ?Maria, yes, in '67.
K: Yes. (and there is) Dani.
N: Dani, a boy, he was born in '71.
K: In '71.
F: Mm.
K: Alright, those children were at the age where they were ready for first communion.
F: That's it.
K: They went to school and had lessons for two months.
F: I see, with the missionaries?
K: With the missionaries.
N: Yes.
K: Yes. They were taking lessons with the missionaries (to prepare themselves) for first communion.
F: I see.
K: But then, when the time came for first communion, they did not admit them. No, they said, your father [claps] is in the Jamaa. That is not allowed. I went (to them) again and made a declaration, which they accepted.
F: Mm.
K: Alright, after the children had continued for two months they were refused.
F: Mm.
K: Your father is in the Jamaa, they told them.
 

8. bon/ ni pale minaona: mm mm/ [claps] kumbe: nitafanya nini? mi nitafuta: mawazo: wa Jamaa vile iko nakwenda/
F: mm/
K: ni vile tunaeleza kufwata: minasikia Kolwezi: nasikia Kalemie: napata: minaona bon/ Kibumbu njo muntu alikuwa anateremia: anakwenda/ na mi kule anakwenda: mazi yangu: yangu: hai: haipendeze/
F: oui/ oui oui/
K: yangu haipendeze/ minapata fwata ile wazo vile napata [noise] ...?.../ mina: minafanya nguvu/
F: mm/
K: kupatana na Kolwezi: kupatana na baba: muchungaji: sasa na tunafika/
F: ....na: bon: eh: mu Kolwezi munaona situation namna gani? minaona: [pauses] ile wakati nilipita mu septante-trois:
N: mm/
F: nilikuwa: bon: nilipita kwa bababa na bamama mais mi sikukuwa na: macontactes mingi sawa sasa/
N: mm/
F: muliona ke: kwa kama: ile wakati ile: nani: Baba Félix: Mukendi/
K: mm/
N: mm/
F: si njo aah: alikuwa mu mambo ya: kusema: mm: twende mu Kinshasa: tu: tuombe nani: eeh:
K: mm: ndiyo...
N: ...personnalité civile/
F: eh?
K: mm/ mm/
F: sasa aliacha?
K: aliacha/
N: aliacha/
F: mais: eh: juu ya nini?
K: Mukendi?
N: mm/
K: Mukendi alikwenda kule...
F: ...alikwenda ku Kalemie vile vile?
K: hapana: yee Mukendi anabakia: ana...
F: ...anabakia tu/
K: anabakia/
F: balikuwa macontactes? bali: balijuana nani ba: ba: bale bababa ya Kalemie: na Mukendi?
K: Mukendi hapana/
F: hapana?
K: habakuyuana hapana/ Mukendi alikuwa nafanya yake: tena alikuwa kama vile truc/
F: ah bon?
K: mm/
F: oui nilisikia kiloko vile/
N: mm/
K: iko kama vile truc/
F: balimustaki: ao?
K: ah hii ni mi aliacha/
F: si ...?... wanaacha?
N: oui mais: aliacha: na kurudia Catholique/
K: kurudia Catholique/
N: mm/
F: mais: alirudia vraiment Catholique?
K: eh/
F: bale [claps] ba: sawa wee ulisema bale: beko: tuko na Catholique: teko: tuko na: JATAF: tuko na kati kati/
N: eheh/
K: ah/
N: sasa bon: yee: kiisha ...?.... kurudia Catholique: sasa: position yake inyewe ku: kwa kujua ana: iliharibisha ku ?heshari: ni ...?...nguvu/
F: eeh/
N: sasa: yee kwa kuisha nguvu: bantu watoke JATAF: baende Catholique/ sasa: policier yake yee mwenyewe: njo hatamuonekane iko muzuri/
F: ahah/
K: position yake:
N: mm/
K: iko vile/ sawa bukula/ yeye hapende huku JATAF/
N: mm/
K: eh? bon/ anakwenda Catholique/ tena Catholique naye asema: kama: paka unafanya nini? unatubu/
F: mm/
K: eeh/
F: mm/
K: sasa yee iko paka vile/
F: mais ma: Monique:
K: mm/
F: aliniambia: kwa kama: nkundi yake: yabo: donc Monique na Félix: eh: habakutubu/ mais balisikilizana tu vile na:
N: ah/
F: nani: na monpère/ ule nani: abbé: Abbé Remb/
N: mm/
F: asema: bon: kama ni bongo? sijue/
N: mm/
F: mais anasema...
K: ...si hatujue hiki kitu...
F: ...hatukutubu/ hatukutubu/
N: ah si: ni ile fasi njo hatujue mbele sawa iko kweli/
F: c'est ça/
N: ahah/
K: yee ni tena muntu na mawazo yake vile anasema/
F: njo vile/ [claps]
K: mm/
F: ni vile/
N: yo kupata yee nazani ....?..../ bale banatumiaka/
F: c'est ça/
N: basi wote ya umuntu: baba na mama banaingia mule/ wee wawili tu/
F: mm/
K: eh/
N: sasa bon: à Kolwezi onyesha ku mwenzangu alisema bitu gani? habataitika/
K: hii ni sécrèt ya kila mutu/
N: mm/
F: ilikuwa tu: sécrèt ya: ya kila couple: ina...
K: aah/
N: kila couple ingia mu ...?.../
F: pale ali: ile wakati waliba: baita ku: ku askofu/
N: eheh/
K: ahah/
F: oui oui/
K: eh/

8. Alright. Then I realized, mm mm, (there is no way). [claps] So what am I going to do? I'll search for the thoughts of the Jamaa and go (where they take me).
F: Mm.
K: That is how we interpret (what it means) to be a follower. I listened to Kolwezi, I listened to Kalemie and what I found I considered. Alright. Kibumbu was someone who had no problems with going (to the bishop). But when I thought about what he did I did not like it.
F: Yes. Yes, yes.
K: It was nothing for me. I decided to pursue the idea I had, [noise] I made an effort.
F: Mm.
K: To get together with Kolwezi, to have an encounter with (their) baba supervisor. We got there recently...
F: ... alright then, how do you see the situation in Kolwezi? I observed (it) [pauses] at the time when I visited in '73.
N: Mm.
F: I visited babas and mamas (of the Jamaa) but I did not have the many contacts I have now.
N: Mm.
F: You could observe then that Baba Félix, Mukendi...
K: Mm.
N: Mm.
F: Wasn't he the one who was involved a scheme saying, let's go to Kinshasa and apply for – what was it again?
K: Mm, yes.
N: (Recognition) as a legal entity.
F: Right?
K: Mm. Mm.
F: Has he given up on that by now?
K: He gave it up.
N: He gave it up.
F: But why?
K: Mukendi?
N: Mm.
K: Mukendi went there...
F: ...did he also go to Kalemie?
K: No. Mukendi stayed put, he...
F: ...he stayed put.
K: He did.
F: Were there contacts? Did the members in Kalemie and Mukendi know of each other?
F: Mukendi, no.
F: No?
K: They didn't know each other. Mukendi was doing his thing, it was a kind of trick.
F: Really?
K: Mm.
F: Yes, I heard a little about that.
N: Mm.
K: It was some sort of trick.
F: He was accused (of that), right?
K: Ah, I gave up on that.
F: They gave it up?
N: Yes, but he left to return to the Catholic church.
K: Return to the Catholic church.
N: Mm.
F: But did he really go back to the Catholics?
K: Yes.
F: There are those [claps] who, as you said, (who declare) we are Catholics, there are others (who say) we are JATAF, and then we have those who are somewhere in between.
N: Yes.
K: Yes.
N: Alright then, the position he took after he went back to the Catholics is difficult to know, also the damage it did.
F: I see.
N: He ended up working on the people of JATAF to make them leave and go to the Catholics. It was his (own) infiltrator (lit. policeman) who realized that this was not going to work.
F: I see.
K: His position...
N: Mm.
K: ... is weak[15], he just doesn't like JATAF to be around.
N: Mm.
K: You understand? Alright, so he went back to the Catholics and then the Catholic church told him, only if you repent.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: Mm.
K: So now he is whatever he is.
F: But, Mama Monique.
K: Mm.
F: She told me that although her group, that is, the group of Monique and Félix, did not repent they reached a kind of understanding.
N: Ah.
F: With a priest, with Abbé Remb.
N: Mm.
F: Well, was this a lie? I don't know.
N: Mm.
F: Someone did tell me.
K: We don't know about that.
F: They did not repent. They did not repent.
N: Ah, about that we don't know whether it is true.
F: Right.
N: Yes.
K: Also, she[16] is a person who has her own thoughts when she speaks.
F: That's right. [claps]
K: Mm.
F: That's right.
N: I think she received ...?....[17] (It is an idea) they stick to.
F: That's it.
N: In everything that regards umuntu baba and mama are involved. Always the two of you.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
N: Now, in Kolwezi, (you had to) reveal what your partner said?[18] They would not go along with that.
K: That is every person's secret.
N: Mm.
F: It was the secret of every couple, it...
K: Yes.
N: Every couple entered....?...
F: That was the case when they were called to (meet) the bishop.
N: Yes.
K: Yes.
F: Yes, yes.
K: Yes.
 

9. F: bon/ [pause] sasa [pause] ulikutana na: nani: na JATAF namna gani? ulikuwa tu wee mwenyewe na mawazo asema tufanye tu: tu nkundi: ao uli: onana na bale ba wa Kalemie?
ile mwanzo ya JATAF hapa mu Lubumbashi:
N: mm/
F: ile ilikuwa...
K: ... eeeh: mwanzo ya JATAF inye miye?
F: oui/
K: mi niliweza kuona kama vile anabakia kama ya pima/ sina mutu wa kunisimama kwa kuweza kuungana naye/
F: ndiyo/
K: sitafwata Mungu kama mi peke/
F: mm/
K: ni mi aliweza kutafuta JATAF:
F: oui/
K: kwenda Kalemie/
F: oui/ uilienda Kalemie?
K: mi nilienda Kalemie/
F: na bale ba ku Kolwezi: JATAF:
K: ah/
F: balienda Kalemie vile vile?
K: ndiyo/
N: balienda Kalemie/
F: nani? nani bale?
N: eh: délégation ya kwanza yo ka: baKazadi/
K: wanakenda tuyue wenye police/
N: mm/
K: nazani: entre...
N: nazani: Baba: Baba huyu Valentin/
K: ?Mbangu...?...
N: njo alipita wakati watu yee mama: mm: Baba ...?.../
F: Valentin nani?
N: ah ni: eeh: Ngoyi/
F: Ngoyi/
N: Ngoyi Valentin/
F: eheh/
N: eko mu ville/
F: eheh/
N: sasa kuwa wababa ingine: baliungaka asema twende kwanza Kalemie/
K: hatufahamu kabisa ile mambo: cité ya ...?...
N: mm/
K: ile ya Kolwezi hatufahamu kabisa/
F: ah oui/
K: sababu hatuyuane kama...
F: ...Baba Pierre aliisha kwenda Kalemie? non/
N: Baba Pierre...
F: ...nilisahabu kumu: kumuuliza: kumuuliza/
N: Baba Pierre yee hapana/
F: non/ non/
N: yee hapana/
K: mm/
N: Baba Pierre hapana/
F: minaona sawa kwa Baba Pierre: Mama Thérèse beko ba nani? habana na o: na: na fonction?
K: mm/
N: non/ bo ...?...
K: njo kichwa/
N: mais: bo beko mu comité pastoral/
F: oui/
K: beko mu comité ya pastoral/
F: eheh/
K: ni batu yenye kulinda mafundisho/
F: c'est ça/
N: mm/
K: ah/
F: ni tena: sawa beko bazee wa: mais:
N: mm/
F: wanafanya kuzala/
N: eheh/ asema: bo banatumika domo mu comité pastoral: kazi ya ...?...: kuchunguza wa: mwenda kufundisha Jamaa/
F: c'est ça/
N: njo kushima déviation/
F: c'est ça/
N: mm
F: c'est ça/
N: eyo/
F: déviation gani?
N: mm/ njo ku gani? ba: muntu ingine ...?...mafundisho kipande/
F: mm/
N: ni sawa hakuisha mafundisho/ sasa: ni yeye: bon: hapende kufundisha..?...uchoko inenea/
F: eyo/
N: eh/ sasa kumbe ingine saa ingine: bon: alisikia tu ...?...kiloko: yee alika: anakulisha ile mafundisho/
F: eheh/
N: mm/ sasa yee habaone kufundisha: sasa: commander ya kufika kule yee: anaanza kufundisha huku/
F: eyo voilà/
N: sasa njo kuya ?contrôler ma: mafundisho ibakie paka vile integral/ sawa vile iliku: ilikuwa hata bananibeba: balinipata: bon: i: iende paka vile/
F: c'est ça/
N: bon: yo ...?... ya kuongeza: wala ...?...nia kutosha/
F: c'est ça/
N: mm/

9. F: Alright. [pause] Now, [pause] how did you get in touch with JATAF? Was it your idea to start a group or was it the contact you had with people in Kalemie? About the beginning of JATAF here in Lubumbashi...
N: Mm.
F: That was...
K: ... well, the beginning of JATAF as far as I am concerned?
F: Yes.
K: The way I looked at it, it was something to try. I had no one to support me or to get together with.
F: Yes.
K: (I told myself) I am not going to follow God even if I am alone.
F: Mm.
K: It was me who went to find out about JATAF.
F: Yes.
K: By travelling to Kalemie.
F: Yes. So you went to Kalemie?
K: I went to Kalemie.
F: And what about the JATAF in Kolwezi.
K: Ah.
F: Did they also go to Kalemie?
K: Yes.
N: They went to Kalemie.
F: Who? Who were they?
N: Well, the first delegation was (Baba) Kazadi and his people.
K: They went there to investigate how to proceed.
K: I think among them (was)...
N: I think there was this Baba Valentin.
K: ?Mbangu.
N: He was the one who visited at the time, he and mama, mm, Baba...?...
F: Valentin, what's his name?
N: Ah, wait, Ngoyi.
F: Ngoyi.
N: Ngoyi Valentin.
F: I see.
N: He lives in (the center) of town.
F: I see.
N: Now, there were other babas who got together saying, let's go to Kalemie.
K: We don't know much about what went on in the African part of town...?...
N: Mm.
K: We don't really know what went on in Kolwezi.
F: Ah, yes.
K: Because we don't know about each other...
F: ...did Baba Pierre go Kalemie? No.
N: Baba Pierre...
F: I forgot to ask him.
N: Baba Pierre, no (he did not go to Kalemie).
F: No. No.
N: He didn't (go).
K: Mm.
N: Baba Pierre, no.
F: I observed that Baba Pierre and Mama Thérèse – what is their role? They don't hold an office, do they?
K: Mm.
N: No, they...
K: They are the head.
N: But they are in the pastoral committee.
F: Yes.
K: They are in the pastoral committee.
F: I see.
K: They are the ones who whatch over the teaching.
F: That's it.
N: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: And also, they are old, but still...
N: Mm.
F: ...they conduct initiation (lit. give birth).
N: Yes. Their function is being the main speakers in the pastoral committee. Their task is to watch those who go around teaching Jamaa.
F: That's it.
N: To prevent deviation.
F: That's it.
N: Mm.
F: That's it.
N: Yes.
F: What kind of deviation?
N: Mm. What kind? Someone may do partial teaching.
F: Mm.
N: It's like he doesn't finish a lesson, he may not feel like teaching or be tired of it.[19]
F: I see.
N: Yes. Or it may be that he picked up just a little and this lesson is too much for him.
F: I see.
N: Mm. It may be that he did not watch (others) teaching and, when asked to address one topic, he may start teaching another.[20]
F: I see.
N: That's when control (is needed to assure) that the teaching remains complete. It should proceed as it was given to me.
F: That's it.
N: Alright. Without something getting added or left out.
F: That's it.
N: Mm.
 

10. F: na: juu ya ibada/ [pause] sasa sawa minaona: iko inafwata tu: eh: forme yake ya ma...
N: mm/
F: ile: ile: ile mawazo ya ibada: na ile: ile nani: ginsi yake/
K: mm/
F: mulipata wapi?
K: mm/ ile ibada: mbele tulikuwa nafanya ibada kama vile: sawa Catholique/
F: oui/ sawa misa:
K: na sawa misa:
F: pasipo...
K: ...bado kufanya kintu ingine:
F: c'est ça/
K: kufanya kintu gani/
F: oui/
K: mais/ eh: walisema haiwezikane/ sasa mi minasema tutaendeleze vile muko nafanya vile/ kama vile munakatala mambo yenu: inafaa kufanya: statut yenu/
F: aah/
K: ni ?botrine yenu/
F: ba: banani balisema vile?
K: eh serkali/
F: ah mu serkali/
K: ah serkali: sababu: eeh: Catholique aliweza kusema nazani ku yee mu mukanda alisema haiwezikane kutumikia ile mawazo mu statut yangu/
F: eheh/
K: eeh/ [claps]
F: aah/
K: wanasema kama ni mu statut yangu/
 F: c'est ça/
K: na ninyi nayo munapashwa kustili ile maneno:
F: oui/
K: si tuko eh: we: waJamaa wakasema hapana/ sisi hatutatie: si tunajua kama: ile mawazo inatuletea uzima/
F: c'est ça/
K: kumbe: si hatutaacha/ kusema bon: kama: vile tutaacha: muna tu kama ?achilia munaweza kufanya yenu/ kama vile/ Catholique anasema: kama: vile banataka: imani yabo watengeneze/
F: mm/
K: mu hali yabo ya kuendea vile: ni maana yabo ya kuweza kuendelea na mafundisho yabo/
F: eeh/
K: shee tunasema bon: iko muzuri/ ni kule waliweza kujifunza: namna ya: kama: wanasema: hii baJamaa ni beko naibia:
F: eh/
K: Catholique/
F: eh/
K: eeh?
F: eh/
K: banaiba ibada ya Catholique: sasa batu yote banakuwa nafanya vile: tunapashwa baonyeshe yabo/ ni kule iliweza kufanya/
F: ah/
K: walisema kwanza: sara ya bikira Maria inafaa kuacha:
F: eheh/
K: eeh: sara ya...
N:...ya sifa/
K: ya sifa ule: inafaa kuacha: ni ile yote/ sasa tulianza kuona: ile iko muzuri/
F: mm/
K: nyie munasifu bikira Maria:
F: mm/
K: banamusalimu/ sisi: tunaomba/ tunaachana/
F: eh/
K: sisi tunaomba Mama Bikira Maria/ ile: sifwa: ile masalimio: ni Gabriel alikuwa kumusalimia: salamu: Maria/
F: eheh/
K: na wasiri salamu na ma: malaika Gabriel: na Bikira Maria: batu haba: ba: wili/
F: bawili/
K: sisi tunaomba/ maana Bikira Maria atuombee kwa mutoto wake/
F: eh/
K: yeye mutoto wake ni yee ni iko naweza katupa uzima: buzazi: na mapendo/
F: na mapendo/ eeh/
K: yetu siye:
F: eh/
K: tunaachana/
F: mm/
K: bon/ banasema: eeh: sala ya baba yetu/ ndiyo sala ya baba yetu iko sala ya bwana Yezu/
F: mm/
K: alisema: fasi yake: sema sasa tutaomba namna gani? aseme muombe kama baba yetu: ile: ile ya mbinguni/ na sisi wote maga: églises yote wanapashwa kuomba: baba yetu/ Mungu ni baba wangu: watu wote/ ni kule tunatafuta ku: matayo:
N: ...?...ku matayo: ku nani: Mathieu six/
K: six/
N: nous lisons/
K: eeh/
F: ahah/
K: tunafichaua vile/
F: eyo/
K: tunasema: baba yetu uliye mbinguni: jina yako litukuzwe/ ufalme wako uze: ma: mapenzi yako atemizwe: hapa duniani kama vile: mbinguni/
F: eheh/
K: tunaachana/
F: ile ingine/
K: ingine/ tunakuwa sasa vile/ sababu: ...?...sifu kwa baba: ni kweli/ sisi tunaona kama ile: sala ya sifa haina ya mutu kusala ...?... ni salia ku bwana Yezu/
F: mm/
K: maana ile tulikuwa kumusifu:
F: mm/
K: Mungu/ njo tunasema: sifwa kwa Mungu juu mbinguni: amani duniani: kwa watu wenye kuwa na mapendo mema/
F: mm/
K: sasa ilitoka tangu siku ya ku uzazi wa Bwana Yezu/
F: mm/
K: ah sisi tunakamata ile/ ?bartume: tunabatiza/
N: mm/
K: sisi tunakamata ubatizo wa Yoane/
F: mm/
K: sisi tunabatiza watu katika: mayi/
F: ...mayi/
K: kama vile Bwana Yezu alibatiza katika ma: mayi
F: [overlapping] ma mayi/
K: sababu tunategemea/ ni Yezu na Maria kama vile ilianza Jamaa na ...?...sisi tunafwata vile/ ah siwezi kufanya baba alifanya hivi wee unafwata ingine/ si tunafwata njia ya baba/
F: eh/
K: ni kule: hata mariage: tunaweza ku: kuanganisha: ku chagula/
F: mm/
K: sawa ni vile kufwatana na: dotrine: ya Catholique: inafaa haiachane ya Jamaa/ sasa Jamaa iko église?
F: mm/ mm/
K: inapashwa kuwa na ?kichwa yake hapana/
F: mm/
K: eh/ kuliko: watu wengine wakuye enemi: anajua asema kama: haba tu paka waJamaa/ sasa hapa/ hapa Lubumbashi/ nazani karibu Jamaa: karibu tatu ile/
F: ndiyo/ ndiyo/
K: sasa hapa bengine anakuya asema siye tuko baJamaa/
F: ah/
K: sasa ile tuko baJamaa banafanya nini? ...?...fanya heheheheeheee/
F: ah ile tetemeka/ ni Jamaa banafanya?
K: iko Jamaa/
N: ...?...
K: shee tunasema: Jamaa ile: hapana/
F: ah/
N: mm/
K: sasa hatuwezi kufanya vile/
F: mm/
K: siye tunasadaki hii/ mawazo ya Mungu kama inatuletea temwa: tunasadiki/
F: oui/
K: kama vile maono lakini/ peut-être/ tunaweza kusadiki/ tukaona kama ona ya kweli/
F: mm/
K: na ni ya jinsi ya ...?...ni hata...?...ni Mungu peke yake: si tunaomba Mungu/ kama hii kitu anatuonyesha ni alama kweli ya Mungu: wee Mungu? eh/ mapendo yake yatimize/
F: cest ça/
 

10. F: And now about the liturgy (of JATAF). [pause] What I notice is that it in its form it follows the...
F: Mm.
F: This idea of a liturgy, of its purpose.
K: Mm.
F: Where did you get it from?
K: Mm. About this liturgy – at first we conducted the service like in the Catholic church,
F: Yes, like a mass.
K: Like a mass.
F: Without...
K: ... doing something different yet.
F: That's it.
K: Or whatever.
F: Yes.
K: However. (Then) they said this cannot be. Whereupon I said, we'll go on doing it the way you[21] do it. If you are against this you must make your (own) bylaws.
F: I see.
K: It's your doctrine.[22]
F: Who was saying this?
K: The government.
F: Ah, the government.
K: Yes, the government. Because I think the Catholic church said in a letter (to the government) it is not acceptable to conduct the liturgy according to our rules.
F: I see.
K: Yes. [claps]
F: Ah.
K: They said these are our rules.
F: That's it.
K: And you must settle this conflict.
F: Yes.
K: We, the Jamaa, said no, were are not going to do this. We know that this idea (to conduct the liturgy) is vital for us.
F: That's it.
K: Therefore, we won't give it up. Alright, (we were told) if you won't give it up you can do it the way you do it now. Then the Catholic church said, if that's what they want they should amed their faith.
F: Mm.
K: What with going on the way they do they will continue with their teaching.
F: Yes.
K: We said alright, that's fine. That was the point at which they convinced themselves that the Jamaa was stealing (their liturgy)...
F: Yes.
K: ...from the Catholic church.
F: Yes.
K: You understand?
F: Yes.
K: They steal the liturgy of the Catholic church and soon everyone will do that. We must insist they ought to show their own, which they then may conduct.
F: Ah.
K: To begin with, they said, the prayer to the Virgin Mary should be left out.
F: I see.
K: Yes, the Prayer of ...
N: ...of Praise...
K: ...of Praise, that's the one – it should be left out (and) that was all. The way we saw it this was fine.
F: Mm.
K: You (Catholics) praise the Virgin Mary.
F: Mm.
K: They greet her. We pray (to her). (That's how) we differ.
F: Yes.
K: We pray (to) Mama Virgin Maria. Praising and greeting her – it was Gabriel who greeted Mary.
F: I see.
K: And the greeting is (something) between the angel Gabriel and the Virgin Mary, between those two persons...
F: ...two (persons).
F: We pray (to her). Because we the Virgin Mary should intercede for us with her son.
F: Yes.
K: He, her child, is the one who has the power to give us wholeness, fecundity, and love...
F: ... and love.
K: Our (prayer) ...
F: Yes.
K: ...and theirs are different.
F: Mm.
K: Alright. Then they talked about the Our Father. The Our Father is a prayer of Lord Jesus.
F: Mm.
K: Somewhere he said, how are we going to pray? Pray like this: Our Father who art in heaven. And all of us, all the churches, ought to pray Our Father. God is my father and that goes for everyone. That is what we find mentioned in...
N:...?...mentioned in –where again? -- in Matthew six.
K: Six.[23]
N: We read....
K: Yes.
F: I see.
K: That's where we take it from.
F: I see.
K: We say: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
F: Yes.
K: We differ.
F: From this other (version).
F: The other one. That's  how we (say the prayer) now. It is true, the Father should be praised. But in our view the prayer of praise is not for a human being to say, it is the way the Lord Jesus prays.
F: Mm.
K: The way we used to praise ...
F: Mm.
K: ...God was to say, praise be to God in Heaven and peace on earth to all who are filled with love.
F: Mm.
K: That is something that goes back to the day when the Lord Jesus was born.
F: Mm.
K: And we took it up. (Then there is) baptism. We baptize.
N: Mm.
K: We adopted the baptism of John.
F: Mm
K: We baptize people (by immersion) in water...
F: ...in water.
K: The way the Lord Jesus baptized in water...
F: [overlapping] ...water.
K: Because we are certain that is was with Jesus and Mary that the Jamaa began and we follow (them). Ah, I cannot say that is what your father did, you follow someone else. We follow the way of the father.[24]
F: Yes.
K: That is why we also can marry people if we choose to.
F: Mm.
K: It's the same when it comes to follow the doctrine of the Catholic church, it should not be different from the one the Jamaa follows. Is the Jamaa a church?
F: Mm, mm.
K: (The Jamaa) should not insist on having its own way (lit. head).
F: Mm.
K: Yes. There may be some who are hostile (to us) saying those people are members of the Jamaa. Right now, here in Lubumbashi, I think there are about three kinds of Jamaa.
F: Yes. Yes.
K: There are some who say we are the (true) Jamaa.
F: Yes.
K: And what are those who claim to be the (true) Jamaa doing? The keep on panting.[25]
F: Ah, you mean when they go into trance. This is done in the Jamaa?
K: In the Jamaa.
N:...?...
K: We say this is something that does not belong in the Jamaa.
F: Ah.
N: Mm.
K: We must not act like this.
F: Mm.
K: What we believe is this: If the inspiration to speak out comes from God then we believe it.
F: Yes.
K: If there are visions like that we can, maybe, believe them. We saw that they were true.
F: Mm.
K: It is something ...?...It is God alone to whom we pray. When he reveals something to us it is truly a sign coming from God. Are you God?
His will be done.
F: That's it.
 

11. N: mais: ma: juu ibada:
F: oui/ mufano: mufano yake muliona wa: wapi? nani ali: ni: ni mu: ni nani: ni mu: mambo fulani ali...
N: ...alianza wa eh....
F: ...alitengeneza vile? al: ali: ali...
K: ...ingine ya ibada kumuanza?
N: hapana: ibada: eh ni: ilipatia mu mawazo mbali mbali/ mais ...?...bababa nani: eh bababa tu nani: Baba: Baba Lutema/
K: eheh/
N: bon: alipita Kolwezi/
K and F: eeh/
N: kule kuonyesha bale ya: baba yee balikutana bantu za temps ya Baba Placide/
F: mm/
N: si njo banajifunda pamoya: bon: aka...?...futa hii mawazo/
F: tangu Baba Placide: ibada naye...
N: non: eh non/ ibada ilikuwa: non/ bababa yee bale...?....
F: ... [overlapping] haba...?...
K: ...balipata mawazo ku Père Placide...?...
F: ...?...
N: bababa wanasema ba: eh: bo: tutafwite...
K: ...?...
N: Mungu mwenyewe atuonyeshe nje ibada/
F: eheh/
N: mm/ sasa njo ali: balikuwa sawa...
F: [overlapping] sawa Mama Thérèse/
N: ...Mama Thérèse: Baba Pierre: bo: nani: Nkonko: Antoine:
F: Nkonko: ndiyo/
K: eeh: Remy:
N: [overlapping] Baba nani: Remy:
F: oui/
N: eheh/ kuko Baba ule Tshibangu Bonaventure:
K: Kitanda:
N: Baba Kitanda:
K: Kalala/
N: Kalala/
F: oui/
N: sasa bale bote: bakaingia vile: bakaanza kutafutia hii mawazo/ sasa ni Mungu mwenyewe si alionyesha/ mm/
K: kufwatana si: na si tulipatia...?...
N: ...?...alionyesha vile:
F: sasa mwee bote munafwata tu ile format ...?...?
K: eheh/
N: sasa ile format: njo ilikuwa publié le quatorze mai: quatre-vingt-deux/
F: quatre-vingt-deux?
K: eheh/
F: ahah/
N: njo i: ikatoka vile: na bababa kanisa yote: njo quand même: kupublier sasa ...?.../
F: c'est ça/
N: mm/ mm/
F: eheh/
N: njo beko wote banasaidia...?...balikuwa kutengeneza ibada moya: lakini banaangalia asema: ts: hayakuwa muzuri/ njo ...?...bale ba kutenga vile: njo wanatosha nini: hii ibada inyeye/
F: mm/ [pause]
 

11. N: But (we were talking) about the liturgy.
F: Yes. Where did you look for a model? Who was it, a certain person or something that happened ...
N: ...it began with...
F: ...(someone) who worked it out, who...
K: ...someone who invented the liturgy?
N: No. The Liturgy is something that was conceived with various ideas. But some members such as Baba Lutema...
K: Yes.
N: ... went to Kolwezi.
K and F: Yes.
N: There they were shown (what to do) when they met with people who go back to the time of Baba Placide.
F: Mm.
N: What they did was getting together and teach themselves. In the end they came up with this idea.
F: So the liturgy dates back to Baba Placide...
N: No, well, no. The liturgy was – no, it was those babas...
F: [overlapping]...they...
K: ...they got the idea from Father Placide...?...
F: ...?...
N: The babas said, we are going to follow...
K: ...?...
N: God Himself should show us how to go on with the liturgy.
F: Yes.
N: Mm. Among them there were...
F: [overlapping]... (people like ) Mama Thérèse...
N: ...Mama Thérèse, Baba Pierre, Nkonko Antoine.
F: Nkonko, yes.
K: Yes, Remy.
N: [overlapping] Baba Remy.
F: Yes.
K: Yes, and there was this Baba Tshibangu Bonaventure.
K: Kitanda.
N: Baba Kitanda.
K: Kalala.
N: Kalala.
F: Yes.
N: Now, they all came together to explore this idea (of a liturgy). In the end it was God Himself who showed us, mm.
K: Following each other we got...?...
N: ...(God) showed us how.
F: So now all of you follow that format?
K: Yes.
N: The format that was published on May 14, '82.
F: '82?
K: Yes.
F: I see.
N: That was when how it came out. Now it has been published by the leaders of every church.
F: That's it.
N: Mm. Mm.
F: I see.
N: They all helped and put together a common liturgy. But when they took another look at it they said it isn't right yet. So those who were working on it eventually put together the liturgy as it is (now).
F: Mm. [pause]

12. juu ya: juu ya ba: Jamaa: maJamaa ya mbali mbali: saw: sasa bale ba: Baba Sébastien: Baba Ndala Marcel: munona namna gani?
K: eh: Baba: Sébastien Nkonko? eh: nani:
F: Nkondo/
K: Nkondo/ na Baba nani:
F: Marcel/
N: ...?...
K: Marcel/ wale [pauses]: bon: tangu mwanzo: bo baliweza kubakia paka ndani/ [claps]
F: mm/
K: mm/ paka vile/ [pause]
F: mais: bo balitubu/
K: ndiyo/
F: na ku mu: nkundi yabo/
K: na bo mu nkundi yabo yote/
F: ...?...
K: groupe yabo yote/
F: oui/ sasa [pauses] eh/ tuta: tutawaangaria namna gani? ni kusema bon: [pauses] ooh: kazi yabo: kama: baliona vile ni: ni muzuri: banapashwa kufwata mawazo yabo: alakini shee tuna: tuna: hatuwezi kufwata ile mawazo? ao: balifanya mbaya: ao nini?
K: aah: ile mubaya: Bwana Yezu alisema kama wee wa dunia hapana kuamua/
F: mm/
K: saa ingine mitakatala kile: si yo ginsi anajua na iko anatumika katika mawazo yake/
F: eh/
K: si hatutamua: tunayua kila moya na Mungu wake vile anaanza kupata/
F: hh/
K: lakini ...?...sisi tuliweza kuona kama: kufwata: vile tuliweza kusikia: kufwatana na mapendo vile tuko naona/ kila moya katika roho yake: mu maana yake: pale tuliweza kukamata:
F: mm/
K: kutoka/ bengine ba ali: balitoka/ haa/ si bote baliweza kusema kama fulani fulani hapana/ ingine alisema: fulani/ na ile yote groupe iko nafanya: eh? na bale bote yee kumufwata ile shauri yake: eh/
F: mm/
K: eeh? na bote nani ya eklesia/ bon: kama kila muntu aliweza kuyuana vile anaona: ...?... ni huyu/ banataya na mi naye kupaka ...?...wazo moya:
F: mm/
K: yo mi naanza kuitokea/
F: munaoma: munaona kama bo banafwata tena: vraiment: mafundisho ya Baba Placide? ao bana: banaendelea mu...
K: sasa: kuyua ile kitu ni kama vile minakuona wee/ nayua kama minayua/
F: mm/
K: kama vile mi sione yeee karibu yake: ikiye iko nafanya: mi sijue/
F: mm/ [pause]
K: sawa vile minaona kyangu ki naona: njo naona kama:
F: ndiyo/
K: njo kile minakamatia/
F: ndiyo/
K: enfin/
F: alors mi nili: nili: niliisha kusumbulia na: surtout na Baba Sébastien:
K: mm/
F: na mafundisho yabo nili: nilisikia/
K: mm/
F: anafwata tu mafundisho sawa zamani/
K: mm/
F: sione: sione [pauses] différence/
K: mm/ [pause]
 

12. How do you see different groups of the Jamaa such as those of Baba Sébastien and Baba Ndala Marcel?
K: Well, Baba Sébastien Nkonko? Or rather...
F: ...Nkondo.
K: Nkondo, and Baba...
F: Marcel.
N: ...?...
K: Marcel. They [pauses] – from the beginning, they had the strength to remain inside (the Catholic church). [claps]
F: Mm.
K: Mm. Just like that. [pause]
F: But they repented[26].
K: Yes.
F: Together with those who were in their groups.
K: And everyone in their groups.
F: ...?...
K: Their entire group.
F: Yes. Now [pauses], how shall we think of them? (Should we) say fine [pauses], ooh, this is their business, if that is how they saw it it's alright, they must follow their thoughts but we cannot go along with them? Or did they go wrong, or what?
K: Aah, (I don't know) about going wrong. Lord Jesus said you are of this world, you don't stop quarreling.
F: Mm.
K: Now and then I'll reject what they did. Is the position he took not something he worked out in his thoughts?
F: Yes.
K: We won't stop quarreling. Each of us knows his God the way he first met him.
F: Yes.
K: We saw that we should follow what we understood, and we should do this together with love according to our point of view. Each of us can take (a position) in his soul, in his way.
F: (Regarding the decision) to leave (the Catholic church) – some did leave. However, none of us can say such-and-such a person (did wrong). Some said this, but was it not the entire group who did it? All those who took his counsel?
F: Mm.
K: Right? And they all belong to the church. If everyone could understand the other's point of view he would be accept him (as he is). I may be reproached for spreading a certain thought.
F: Mm.
K: That's why I began to leave (the Catholic church).
F: As you see it, are those (who did not leave) really still following the teachings of Baba Placide? Or are they moving on...
K: Now, to know that is like I see you. I know that I know.
F: As it is, I don't watch him closely (enough) to know what he may be doing.
F: Mm. [pause]
K: I see what is mine.
F: Yes.
K: That is what I take.
F: Yes.
K: In the end.
F: At any rate, I have talked above all with Baba Sébastien.
K: Mm.
F: And I listened to their teaching.
K: Mm.
F: He just follows the teaching as it used to be.
K: Mm.
F: I don't see, I don't see [pauses] a difference.
K: Mm. [pause]

13. F: bon: unakuwa: munakuwa sasa ma Jam: maJamaa ya mbali mbali: mais [pauses] mu: munaona sasa maendeleo mu JATAF: par example ni: nilikuwa ku: ku: na mu ul: ulizo ingine/ sawa mu français tunasema: ts: propagande/
N: mm/
F: donc: muko na programme moya: ya: ya: nani: ku: kupata membres: ya kuingisha membres: donc des nouveaux: membres: prosélytisme?
N: mm/
F: sasa...
N: ahah/
F: sawa vile tunasema mu: proselytisme?
N: mm/
F: donc: muko actifs....
N: [overlapping] ...?...
F: ...muko actifs ya: ya: ya...
N: ...kwa kutafuta waamini?
F: yea/
N: ah/ non/ non: ile mawazo: tuseme hapana/ mm/ njo ke: tutatafuta waamini: kwa matendo yetu/
F: ahah/
N: eh/ juu: muntu aone ...?...asema...?...
F: ...hapana kupitapita mu...?...
K: mu ma?mabandes: hapana/
F: ...?...
K: ile hapana/ ile hapana/
N: ...?...ile hapana/
K: kila muntu na Mungu wake:
N: [overlapping]...?.../
K: anakuita na kwende...?...
N: [overlapping]...?...maisha yako: njo itafunda nani: itafunda ...?.../ mais: ts: namna gani ku ?Konko huyu...?...bakie: huyu wanaishi hivi/ kumbe yee se: hata: sasa hatakuuliza/ njo na...?...sana mawazo: non?
F: mm/
N: shee tu wanatumikatumika: katika Mungu kipande fulani/
F: ndiyo/
N: mm/ si njo ya nani: hii mifano/ nitasema: pale ya u: ya kupita nani: manyumba ...?... non: sikia: sawa vile hapana ni ba: batu ...?.../
F: non/
N: ile hapana/
F: ile muna...
K: ...?..../ ile hapana/
N: eeh/
F: sasa ba: bale ba: mwenye kufwata: donc: banafika namna gani? banaona ba sawa vile ulisema...
K: ...matendo...
F and N: [overlapping] ...?....
K: mifano na matendo/
N: mm/
F: na: sasa kwa kuendelea mu Jamaa: yenu: eeh: [pauses] muna: munafwata: sawa programme: sawa vile zamani?
N: ...?...
F: ni kusema: hii manjia tatu? mais munataya sasa...
N: ...?...
F: ...munataya tena manjia?
N: eh: mu...?...paka manjia...
K: [overlapping] manjia...
N: ...sawa mabaraka/
K: baraka ao njia ya tatu eeh/
N: [overlapping] ...?... Baba Lutema asema njia ao baraka/ [claps]
K: eeh/
N: asema mu fasi asema ni ...
F: ao mawazo: sawa vile...?...
K: [overlapping] mawazo ndiyo/ eeh: sawa vile/
F: hata mawazo: tuta...?...
K: [overlapping] ni vile eeh/
N: yote inagaliki pamoya/
K: wazo ya kwanza: wazo ya pili: wazo ya tatu/
F: c'est ça/
K: paka vile/
F: sasa: inakamata na: sawa mwaka ngapi ku: kufika ku mwa: nani: ku njia ya kwanza?
K: kwa: kufika: kufika...
F: ...kufika: kufika: na kuingisha ku...?...?
N: kuingisha njia/
K: kuingia manjia nazani: eh [pauses] bado:
N: mm mm non/
K: mpaka sasa ikingali ilikuwa suspendu/
N: mm/
K: paka sasa: ku mwezi wa saba: njo tutaingia tena mu assemblée kama: sababu: watu walikamata Jamaa mubaya/
F: ahah/
K: eeh: sababu kulikuwa mutu mwengine anapata mafundisho kiloko:
F: oui/
K: anakwenda pale/ anaanza kuzala/
F: eheh/
K: yee pale anaanza kuzala: anaweza kufanya ile yote/ sasa: ni kule Baba muchungaji mukuu: alipotendea kila kuonana na Baba wote:
F: mm/
K: waBaba wa njia ya tatu:
F: ndiyo/
K: kutaka kujua: vile anatumika mawazo ya Jamaa/
F: c'est ça/
K: kutafuta: ni kizazi gani kilileta uharibifu katika Jamaa/
F: ahah/
K: inaleta lufu/ ku mawazo mafundisho mbali mbali
F: mm/
K: sababu kama ile ma: Jamaa iliharibika ni juu ya wabo aliharibifwa wa batu/
F: c'est ça/
K: sasa: mbele: kwa kwanza ile kanisa depuis se: [pauses] septante-sept: eh: septante-sept: septante-huit:
F: mulisi: simamisha...
K: ...simamisha kuleta batu manjia/
F: aah/
K: tulisema: hapana kuleta batu tena: manjia/ kumbe...
N: ...nazania mupaka ili?zamatiwa mu ...?...ma quatre-vingt-et-un/
K: eh eh/
N: kiisha shee tulianza huku/
K: Kalemie tangu ilianza hayaingiza mutu hata njia ya kwanza/
N: [overlapping] ...?...walianza nani: kanisa:
K: eh/
N: bo balikuwa ...?... walisema/
F: mais mu: mwee muli: mulianza zaidi zaidi: mulianza mu?
K: ... quatre-vingt/
N: ...?...
K: quatre-vingt-et-un eheh/
F: quatre-vingt...
K: si: fasi...
N: ...?...ilikuwa: c'est était: iko le vingt-deux juin...?...
K: eheh/
N: le vingt-deux: le vingt-trois/
K: eheh/
F: ah bon/ muko na: na:
K: mm/
F: na: anniversaire.
N: [laughs]
K: ha ha/ bon: sasa ilikuwa vile:
F: eh?
K: eeh: tuna: bana: banasimamisha kuleta mabaraka na: kufanya kintu gani/ asema tuangarie kila bantu: balete hali ya mafundisho/ ni kule kila muntu anaandika mafundisho yake: vile alisikia/
F: mm/
K: anaandika anapeleka kwa: muchungaji mukuu...
F: ...?...
K: muchungaji mukuu anatuongoya ile maneno: ana...?...classer rapports yote sasa: nazani mwaka iliisha: njo kupeleka sasa:
N: ...?...fungula:
K: fungula tena/ kuangaria vile sasa ni banani bana...?...tena/ wengine wanakuja namna kama: uespion/
F: oui/
K: akuwe kuingia yote yetu/ hatujue mawazo yake anakuya naye/
F: eyo/
K: tutaangaria muntu kama anataka kweli mawazo ya Mungu: tutasikia vile ataweza kufwata na vile atasimama/
N: kumbe sawa ya kuusho ya hii asema na durée/ wanasema: ita...?...kadi: kadiri nani: mu ?utangano kwa kila manjia:
F: oui/
N: ...?... mais maendeleo ya muntu mwenyewe/
F: maendeleo ya muntu mwenyewe/
N: [overlapping] maendeleo ya muntu/
F: ah/
N: bon/ akiendelea muzuri/ na kama nani mi: mafundisho anapata: anaonyesha na ku mifano/
F: oui/
N: mu maisha yake/
K: mm/
F: mais: c'est ça/
N: mm/
F: donc: haitakuwa miaka moya ao miaka mbili: tatu: ça dépend...
K: ...oui ça dépend/
F: mais: inafaa tu: sawa zamani: inafaa: ao leo?
K: mm/
F: non? anapashwa kuwa na ndoa/
K: ndiyo/ anapashwa kuwa: funga ndoa kwanza mbele/
F: mm/ c'est ça/
K: kiisha kufunga ndoa:
F: oui/
K: njo atapata sasa njia ya kwanza/
F: c'est ça/
K: eh: ndiyo/ [pause]
F: ah: i: ile ni mawazo muzuri nazani: kusimamisha kiloko:
K: mm/
F: maneno: si ilikuwa magumo mu Jamaa:
K: eheh/
F: tangu zamani: ilikuwa ile matur: ile fujo juu ya kuzalazala/
K: eheh/
F: ah?
K: eh/
F: juu ya kutafuta:
K: mm/
F: mukubwa/
K: mukubwa eeh/
F: ile eh?
K: ile hatiri kuwa nguvu/
F: ile muliona/
K: eheh/ ile tulisema tunafaa kwenda polepole na watu/
F: ahah/ [pause]

13. Alright, now you have different kinds of Jamaa. But [pauses] how do you see developments in JATAF? For instance, I had another question about what we call in French propaganda.
N: Mm.
F: In other words, do you have a program of recruiting and initiating new members (or) followers, (is there) proselytism?
N: Mm.
F: Currently...
N: Well.
F: Something like what we call proselytism?
N: Mm.
F: In other words, are you active...
N: [overlapping]...?...? [27]
F: Are you actively...
N ...looking for adherents?
F: Yes.
N: Ah. No. Let's say there is no such plan. Mm.
What we do is look for adherents through the way we act.
F: I see.
N: Yes. Because a person should see...
F: ...not going around (from house to house)...
K: In groups (lit. gangs), no.
F: ...?...
K: None of that. None of that.
N: Not that.
K: Everyone is with his God.
N: [overlapping]...?...
K: He calls you and you go.
N: [overlapping]...?...it is your life that sets an example (lit. teaches)...?... But, the position of Nkonko should be in accord with his and his followers' life. Therefore, he is not going to ask you what you think of his thoughts, right?
F: Mm.
N: We go on working, doing our share under God.
F: Yes.
N: Mm. That's how it is. About going from house to house I'll say no. Listen, not like that, it's people...?...
F: No.
N: Not that.
F: Not that.
F: What you...
K: ...?...Not that.
N: No.
F: Now, those who join – how do they come to it? As you said, they see...
K: ... (our) actions.
F and N: [overlapping] ...?...
K: The examples (we give) and the way we act.
N: Mm.
F: Now, to go on with you Jamaa, [pauses] do you follow the traditional program?
N: ...?...
F: That is to say, those three ways (or grades of initiation)? But first, do you still call them...
N: ...?...
F: ... do you still call them ways?
N: Yes, just ways....
K: [overlapping]...ways...
N: ...the same as blessings.
K: It's the third blessing or the third way, yes.
N: [overlapping] Baba Lutema calls them both, ways or blessings. [claps]
K: Yes.
N: Depending on where he speaks.
F: Or also thoughts...
K: [overlapping] Thoughts, yes. Yes, (meaning) the same.
F: We (can call them) thoughts...
K: [overlapping] It's the same, yes.
N: They all are used.[28]
K: The first thought, the second thought, the third thought.
F: That's it.
K: Like that.
F: Now, how many years does it take to reach the first grade?
K: To reach, to reach...
F: ...to get to initiation?
N: Initiation into a grade.
K: About reaching grades, I think [pauses] we are not that far yet.
N: No, mm mm.
K: Until now, initiation has been postponed.
N: Mm.
K: Right now, in July, we are going bring this to the assembly because there are people who got the Jamaa wrong.
F: I see.
K: Yes, because there may be someone who had had a little instruction.
F: Yes.
K: He then goes away and begins to initiate (lit. give birth to members).
F: Yes.
K: And once he has started to initiate he may do everything. That's where baba (Lutema), the chief supervisor took action, meeting with every baba.
F: Mm.
K: Every baba of the third grade.
F: Yes.
K: To get to know how he works (with) the thoughts of the Jamaa.
F: That's it.
K: And to find out which line of descent caused
damage in the Jamaa.
K: When teaching toward the grades is not the same (throught the Jamaa) this is deadly.
F: Mm.
K: When the Jamaa broke apart it was because of what they did, the damage was done by (such) people.
F: That's it.
K: So, when we started this church (of ours) in [pauses] '77, '78.
F: You stopped...
K: ...stopped with initiating people into grades.
F: I see.
K: We said that we would no longer initiate people in grades. Therefore...
N: ... I think this was stopped around '81.
K: Yes.
N: Then we took it up again here (in Lubumbashi).
K: In Kalemie not a single person was initiated since, not even into the first grade.
N: [overlapping] ...?... after starting with the church.
K: Yes.
N: They were ...?... they said.
F: But you took it up again -- when exactly?
K: ...in '80.
N: ...?...
K: In '81, yes.
F: In '80...
K: We...
N: ...?... it was on June 22...?...
K: Yes.
N: The twenty-secon or the twenty-third.
K: Yes.
F: Alright. So you have....
K: Mm.
F: ... an anniversary.[29]
N: [laughs]
K: Hah, hah. Alright, what had happened...
F: Yes?
K: ... was that the conferring of blessings or anything like that was stopped. Let us look at everyone, we said, (and decide) whether they need to be brought up to level as regards teaching. So then each person wrote down what he had been taught as he had understood it.
F: Mm.
K: He wrote it down and brought it to the chief supervisor.
F: ...?...
K: The chief supervisor waited for us to do this and compiled the reports. I believe that was after a year that (initiation)...
N: ...?...was opened...
K: ...was opened once again.
we took a (good) look at those who (asked for it). There were some who came to de something like espionage.
F: Yes.
K: (With the aim) to infiltrate everything we did while we were not to know what the plans were.
F: I see.
K: (Therefore) we'll take a look (to make sure) a person really has a desire to know the thoughts of God. We'll know then whether he can go on (with initiation) or should stop with it.
N: As to how long it takes it is said that this depends on what happens in each grade.[30]
F: Yes.
N: ...?... but (what counts) is the progress each person makes.
F: The progress each person makes.
N: [overlapping] A person's progress.
F: Ah.
N: Alright. (Asking) whether he made good progress and put into practice what he learned from the teaching he had.
F: Yes.
N: In his (way of) life.
N: Mm.
F: But – alright.
N: Mm.
F: So, whether it is going to take one year or two or three is not fixed, it depends...
K: ...yes, it depends.
F: However, like in the past, (candidates) today...
K: Mm.
F: ...must be married, right?
K: Yes. (A candidate) must have gotten married first.
F: Mm. That's it.
K: After having married...
F: Yes.
K: ...he'll be admitted to the first grade.
F: That's it.
K: Yes. [pause]
F: Well, I think it's a good idea to slow down a little.
K: Mm.
F: Because wasn't that a problem in the Jamaa?
K: Yes.
F: Way back, there was this competition about initiating (new members).
K: Yes.
F: Right?
K: Yes.
F: To reach...
K: Mm.
F: ... a high position[31].
K: A high position, yes.
F: (There was) that, right?
K: That was a constant danger.
F: You observed that?
K: Yes. That's why we said that we must go ahead slowly with the people.
F: I see. [pause]
 

14. bon: sawa minaona tu wee munaendelea très bien/ hapa Lubumbashi/ [pause] ile tulisumbulia juu ya: ya mankundi ya hapa/
K: mm/
F: sina: sina na ulizo tena: mais: eeh: mara ingine wee uko na ulizo?
K: mm/
F: kwa kuniuliza/
K: miye?
F: eh/
K: minaweza kuuliza kama vile: hali vile muliweza kusikia sasa hapa: tunaweza kusikia: mawazo: mbali mbali ya watu: kama vile wanyewe: wababa waliyofunda na Père Placide:
F: eeh/
K: habana kinywa moya/
F: eeh/
K: bon/ sasa: ni nani ataweza kutusikilizisha sisi? [pause]
F: ah/
K: bon/ sasa: kama vile watu saba/
F: oui/
K: waliyopata mawazo kwa Père Placide:
F: c'est...?.../
K: bon/ kama: Valentin Kaumba:
F: oui/
K: eh? Mutombo:
F: eh/
K: eeh: kama vile: Kayao: kwa eh: Nkonko: eeh? bale bantu anafanya vile/ sasa ni batu iko ?agréer mu Shaba/
F: eh/
K: eh? sasa mbele: Kaumba na Mutombo: walikuwa mawazo mbali mba:
K and F: mbali mbali/
K: Mutombo: hakutoka/
F: ah/
K: alibakia paka mu: mu: mu Jamaa: mu Katolika mbele/
F: ah/
K: Kaumba alitoka/
F: aah/ oui/
K: alikuwa nafundisha sisi/ njo alituformer:
F: oui/
K: na vile tulibakia kule: alikuwa ku...?...: habakuwa na mapatano na Mutombo/
F: ...?...
K: bon/ Kaumba na: nani: na Nkonko: na Kayao: balikuwa kintu hiki: kimoya/
F: mm/
K: bon/ sasa ile tunaona: Kaumba na Kayao na Nkonko: allez: banatengana/
F: mm/
K: eeh? huyu asema kama: ah: bale bantu banaf: haribisha: ao sasa batu wanaharibisha/ sasa tutasikia nini?
F: mm/
K: kile kitu unaona kama vile weye/ ilikuwa kule nazani utaweza kutusikiliza: bale batu tutafanya nini/ ao kama ni banani banakuwa sawa bale batu...?...banani banafanya ...?...
F: mm/ hii kintu ya: ya nguvu sana/ mais: munakuwa tena na Baba Nkonko non?
N: Baba Nkon: Baba Nkonko na Baba ?Lukale tuko nao/
F: c'est ça/
K: ...?.../
F: hata: sawa Pierre na Thérèse...
K: Pierre Mwamba mais...
F: eheh/
K: ...tuko naye/ Baba tshi: Mbuyu Charles:
F: haba mu kabula mara i: mu ma: baba saba?
K: mm/
F: non mais alikuwa tu: ku mwanzo...
K: eh/
F: ... kabisa na Père Placide/
K: eh/
F: tena ile mambo ya baba saba:
K: mm/
F: ni sawa arisi/ ni sawa arisi/ maneno: misululu ya baba saba inaachana/ niko na musu: musululu ingine/
K: eheh/
F: eh?
K: eh/
F: sawa: Banza: Anastas:
K: eh/ Mbazi?
F: Mbanza/
K: njo naye Anastas/ alikuwa Lwilu anakufa/
F: Mujanji Laurent:
K Mujanji Laurent/
F: Binga Mathieu:
K: Binga Mathieu eh/
F: eeeh: nani huyu? eh? bale: bale ...?...
N: Katumba Benjamin:
F: Katumba Benjamin/
K: mm/
F: Kaumba Valentin:
K: mm/
F: nabakia tu mbili/
N: Banza Kayo:
K: mm mm/
N: ya ba: non/
F: banabakia tu mbili/ ile ita: kumiweza kusoma: kama minatuma kitabu yetu: kitabu yetu/
K: [overlapping] ...kitabu ahah/

14. Alright, as far as I can see you are doing quite well here in Lubumbashi. [pause] So, we talked about the (different) groups here.
K: Mm.
F: I have no more questions, perhaps you have some?
K: Mm.
F: Something to ask me.
K: Me?
F: Yes.
K: Given what you were able to understand about the situation, I could ask you how to comprehend why the thoughts of people who learned (them) from Father Placide are so far apart.
F: Yes.
K: (Why) they do not speak with one voice.
F: Yes.
K: Alright. Who will be able to make us understand this? [pause]
F: Ah.
K: Alright. Now, take the seven people.[32]
F: Yes.
K: The ones who received the thoughts from Baba Placide.
F: ...?...
K: Alright. For instance, Valentin Kaumba.
F: Yes.
K: Right? (And) Mutombo.
F: Yes.
K: Yes, such as Kayao and Nkonko, right? Those people whom he taught. Now, they are people who came together in Shaba.
F: Yes.
K: Right? First, it was Kaumba and Mutombo who had thoughts that were far...
K and F: ...far apart.
K: Mutombo did not leave (the Catholic church).
F: Ah.
K: He continued in the Jamaa that remained Catholic.
F: Ah.
K: (Whereas) Kaumba left it.
F: Ah, yes.
K: He taught us. He is the one who formed us.
F: Yes.
K: And that is how we continued. He and Mutumbo did not agree.
F: ...?...
K: Alright. Kaumba, with Nkonko and Kayao, were inseparable (lit. like one thing).
 F: Mm.
K: Alright. Now, what we saw was the Kaumba, Kayao, and Nkonko separated.
F: Mm.
K: Right? One would say about the others that they were the ones who ruined things. What should we make of that?
F: Mm.
K: This you also observed. I thought, that was something you could help us understand. What we should do with those people or with others like them.
F: Mm. That is a very difficult matter. But Baba Nkonko is still with you, or not?
N: Baba Nkonko and Baba ?Lukale are with us.
F: That's it.
K: ...?...
F: Also (people like) Pierre and Thérèse.
K: Pierre Mwamba, of course.
F: Yes.
K: He is with us, as is Baba Mbuyu Charles.
F: Does he count as one of  the seven founding fathers?
K: Mm.
F: I don't think so but he was there from the beginning.
K: Yes.
F: At the very beginning with Father Placide.
K: Yes.
F: At any rate, this thing about the seven fathers...
K: Mm.
F: ...is a kind of legend. It's a kind of legend. Because the lists of the seven fathers differ. I have a different list.
K: I see.
F: You understand?
K: Yes.
F: (With people) like Banza Anastas.
K: Yes. Mbazi?
F: Mbanza.
K: That's the one, Anastas. He used to live in Lwilu. He died.
F: Mujanji Laurent.[33]
K: Mujanji Laurent.
F: Binga Mathieu.
K: Binga Mathieu, yes.
F: Let's see, who else?
N: Katumba Benjamin.
F: Katumba Benjamin.[34]
K: Mm.
F: Kaumba Valentin.
K: Mm.
F: There are two more.
N: Banza Kayo.
K: Mm, no.
N: People like – no.
F: There are two more. That is something you can read about when I send you my book.
K: [overlapping]... the book, yes.
 

15. F: sinon: inafaa tu: kusoma/ ma: nani: ma: ile yote Baba Placide aliandika/ [pause] aliandika mingi/ ali: i: c'est vrai: ingine alisema tu mu kinywa/ [pause] tena: mm: bale ba inje/ wanasema tu kila mara: Jamaa beko na ma: masécrèts yabo/ sécrèts gani? sécrèts?
N: mm/
F: ile ...
N: mm/ eh: ...?...sema baJamaa masécrèts yabo: njo kusema ...?...mafundisho: bon: ni bo benyewe baliingia tu mu nyumba: ...?...
F: c'est ça/
N: eheh/
F: hata mu: mu mafundisho juu ya maendeleo:
K: mm/
F: ni kweli: hata za: hata zamani balifanya tu vile sawa: bon: tuta: tutami: miingisha mbele kipande: ile ingine: haumujue/
K: ndiyo/
F: mais mutajua/
K: mm/
F: ah? donc: sécrèts dans ce sens: bon: iko/ mais sécrèt sécrèt eh/
K: mm/
F: donc: mutaweza ku: kufwata: kama eeeh: munasoma surtout mawazo ya: ya: ya Baba Placide/
K: mm/
F: na kitabu yabo/ [pause] tena zamani balifanya ile kitabu mu: mu Musonoi:
K: mm/
F: bale ba: ba mu mwanzo:
K: mm/
N: eheh/
F: ya mafundisho/
K: iko a: kitabu ile: ile kitabu: nazani ni paka vile njo ile kazi tulisema kama: comité pastoral itaweza kutafuta mu ile mawazo yote ilikuwa: [interrupts himself] ile kitabu nazani niko na: Monseigneur Malunga/
F: ah: njo kitabu ya hapa? niko naye/
K: uko naye njo?
F: ndiyo/ niko naye/ ...?... itapatikana? tuweze kupata/
K: ...?...
F: [short gap in recording] ...kusema tu: eh: bon: tuliangaria ile kitabu ya Jamaa: eh: Katolika/
K: eh/
F: disons/ et: una: unasema fujo ilitoka: juu ya bitabu mbili/
K: hapana/ njo: minyewe fujo ilianza: sisi hatukujua vile: mawazo ya bapères: vile...?...
F: ... ndiyo: ndiyo ndiyo: ndiyo ndiyo/
K: eh/
F: mais kisha: ba: banani: ba: ba: Ndala Marcel na ba:
K: baba ku: Valentin...
F: ...ba ku Valentin:
K: eh/ walianza:
F: ba: bo balifanya ma: kitabu yabo/
K: eh/
F: ya mbali mbali/
K: mm mbali mbali/ Saint Benoît:
F: oui/
K: walifanya kitabu yake/
F: eeh/
K: ma: Saint Jean:
F: oui/
K: njo hii/
F: njo hii?
K: eheh/
F: eheh/ balikuwa na fujo juu ya: bale bitabu?
bi: bile bitabu?
K: ?kutoka sikilizana hapa/ ah: wengine wanakuwa natiaka mambo kama masti: kustakiana/
F: eeh/
K: eh: huyu asema kama aah huyu hafundishe muzuri/ asema kama aah: hafundishe muzuri/
F: mm/
K: njo iliyo ilileta fujo/
F: sasa wee a: muna: munatumika juu ya kitabu moya: bon? mais: si...
N: eh: ule u...
K: siye tuna...
F: ...anzika?
N: shee hii kitabu nani:...
K: ...siye...
N: ... sawa bali ...?... ile kitabu ...?....tuliona/ mm/
K: ile kitabu si hatuna naye/
N: shee hatuna naye/
F: oui/
N and K: mm/
F: na muko na plan ya: ya...
K: ...ya mafundisho kama vile alianza Père Placide/
F: oui/ oui oui/
K: tangu mafundisho Jama ni nini:
F: oui/
K: Jamaa katika mawazo ya Mungu:
F: oui/
K: bumuntu:
F: oui/
K: vile masikilizano: mapendo...
F: si una: soma tu..
K: yo ile ile yote..
F: soma tu: eeh...
K: ...ni ile yote sawa tu tulisema/
F: oui oui/ oui oui/
N: mm/
K: ni ile yote tu wanabakia naye/ na ni ile waliweza kufanya:
F: mm/
K: ah mu kutoma ni ile kila muntu anaweza kufundisha vile yee: tulifanya kazi/
F: ndiyo/
K: eh/
F: ndiyo/
K: sasa ile kitoka juu ya kubisha wapères: walianza kufanya bubishi: walisema kama: beko nafundisha ingine/ ni ile balionyesha ukweli asema kama si mafundisho tuko naye: ni/

15. F: In any case, you should read everything Baba Placide has written. [pause] He wrote a lot. True, there were things he only spoke about. [pause] Mm, outsiders always say that the Jamaa have their secrets. Which secrets? Secrets?
N: Mm.
F: That....
N: ...mm. Well, when they talk about the secrets that people of the Jamaa have they refer to (our) teachings. They are the ones who came to our houses and ...?.../
F: That's it.
N: Yes.
F: (Secrets may be found) in the teachings, because they proceed (gradually)...
K: Mm.
F: That's true. Even in the old days the practice was (to tell the candidates) we are going to introduce you just to a part, the rest you don't know.
K: Yes.
F: But you are going to know about it.
K: Mm.
F: Right? So, in that sense, there are secrets. But this talk about secrets, well...
K: Mm.
F: So, you can go on, above all reading the thoughts of Baba Placide.
K: Mm.
F: And their kitabu (lit. book). [pause] Long ago, this kitabu was put together in Musonoi.[35]
K: Mm.
F: By people (who were in the Jamaa) from the beginning...
K: Mm.
N: Yes.
F: (A book) of teachings.
K: I think this kitabu was like the work of the pastoral committee we talked about, which is to do research on all those thoughts that were [interrupts himself] – I believe I have this document from Monseigneur Malunga.
F: Ah, is that the document (that is used) here? I have it.
K: You do?
F: Yes, I have it. Will it be available? We could get it.
K: ...?...
F: [short gap in recording] ...I did take a look at the document on the Catholic Jamaa.[36]
K: Yes.
F: So-called. And, you said something about a conflict over two documents.
K: Not at all. The conflict started because we did not know what the missionaries were thinking.
F: Yes, yes, of course.
K: Yes.
F: But then people like Ndala Marcel and...
K: ...Baba Valentin....
F: ...people around Valentin...
K: Yes, they went to work.
F: The put together their documents.
K: Yes.
F: Which were quite different.
K: Mm, different. (People of the parish) Saint Benoît ...
F: Yes.
K: ...put together their document.
F: Yes.
K: The one (of the parish) Saint Jean...
F: Yes.
K: ... is this one here.[37]
K: This one?
K: Yes.
F: I see. Were they quarreling over those documents?
K: They did not agree, some even went so far as accusing each other.
F: I see.
K: Yes, one would tell about the other that he did not teach correctly and the other would say the same.
F: Mm.
K: That's what caused the conflict.
F: Now, you are busy with a document, right? But...
N: Yes, the one you...
K: We are...
F: ... is it underway?
N: This document...
K: ...we...
N: ...?... we saw this book, mm.
K: We don't have that document.[38]
N: We don't have it.
F: No.
N and K: Mm.
F: And you have an outline[39] of...
K: ... of teachings as they were set down by Father Placide.
F: Yes, of course.
K: Starting with the instructions on "What is the Jamaa?"
F: Yes.
K: "The Jamaa in the thoughts of God."
F: Yes.
K: "What it means to be human."
F: Yes.
K: And so on, about mutual understanding and love...
F: Why don't you read it...[40]
K: All of that...
F: Just read it...
K: ...everything was there as we said (earlier).
F: Yes, yes.
N: Mm.
K: All that was retained. And this was what enabled them to do (the teaching).
F: Mm.
K: Trusting that this was what everyone would teach as he (Baba Placide) did – (that is) what we accomplished.
F: Yes.
K: Yes.
F: Yes.
K: (It was done) because the missionaries had started an argument. What they are teaching, they said, is something different. (Our document) proved that our teaching was indeed that (of Baba Placide).
 

16. F: niko na ulizo ya mwisho/
K: ndiyo/
F: Baba Placide akikuwa: hapa sasa/
K: mm/
F: ataona: Jamaa: JATAF namna gani? ulizo moya: très difficile/
K: mm/
F: mais: munapashwa kuwaza vile: non?
K: ndiyo/
N: ndiyo/
K: tunapashwa kuwaza/
N: eh/ jambo yetu:
K and F: yambo yetu/
N: njo: ile ...?.... anikumbusha mu kutano tuko naye/ tulikuwa mu comité eh: mu le cinq: wantu wa Kolwezi/ sasa mule: es: itaonyesha ni matortures ya kazi moya/ juu: ii: ilikuwa ...?...Baba Placide: ah njo anasema kwenda siku mu...?...baJamaa batakufuzaka inje/
F: ali: aliona: yee aliona?
N: [overlapping] alikuwa anaisha tambua hii/ alikuwa na ile mawazo/
F: eheh/
N: mm/ njo ki ambala tulikuwa kumu: kuzungumuza nani: na baAlexandre/ bon: ...?...mu comité: alikumbusha sauti hii: moya/ sasa asema bon: ni kitendo: sawa vile ilitendekaka: as: iliomba pake wee muntu na: kama uko: nani: uko na akili: njo usikia maneno ya Baba Placide/ yo hii ...?...incident moya: sawa ilikuwa mu samedi/ samedi moya: asema mu mille neuf soixante/ sasa: bababa bawili: balikuwa ka: balikuwa kukolopa mu kanisa: hii kanisa ya Jamaa/
F: ku: kukolopa?
K: eheh/
N: ...?...kukolopa mu église/
F: eh/
N: balikolopa ...?...
F: mm/
N: sasa: pale walikuwa kukolopa: sasa: bakaanza kukombana juu ya mbegeti: moya/
F: mm/
N: baka: bakafika mbegeti/ sasa: baba: baba alipokuya: kuwa nani: kukatiliza: bon: eh: baba: bal ...?...asema bon: baba alitosha sauti/
asema: bon: muko na: munaanza ku: munaanza kufika nyum: manyumba isiyo kuwa yenu/ saa: mu jua/ asema kwenda siku: hii manyumba mutaacha kwenda kukolopa ile manyumba/ mm/ alafu: ah si njo pale bon: hii kiSwahili: ina...?...asema bon: ni mutu anaisha kukombea utakuwa magumu na batu batabakufuza/ ah batu bataomba kule: bale yabo fasi/ mm/ bon/ na tena kuko nani neno ingine: asema bon: Jamaa ni muti munene: napanda maeklesia Katolik/ bon/ sijui utakaa kukomea: kama: bata u: nani: batakupokea/ mm/
F: mm/
N: manani inyee asema bon: bon: niseme humu mwenyewe mashamba ni Katolika: sasa: muti yee ba...?...shamba yake: njo Jamaa/ bon: kama yakomea: bata: bataf: nani: ma mishsamba atakata ile muti/
F: mm/
N: mm/ sasa pale...?...nani: hapa sasa Baba Placide akipima angaria: ataona asema bon: mambo alianza kusemaka: inatukia/
F: mm/
N: Jamaa: inakuwa ku ile fasi: ba nani: mmm: inakuwa nani: kanisa ya à part/ bon/ na wakati ya magumu tena: bon: ilikuwa mu septante-trois: septante-quatre hivi/ mbele ya Baba kufa/ sasa wakati ...?.... bali: nini: asema basema: baJamaa paka batubu/ bon/ bababa nani: bababa wa Kolwezi pale banatiaka Baba Placide/
F: mm/
N: bakumandikia: asema baba alimaonyesha asema non: eh: kama anaonyesha ma: pa mwee kurudia ku Katolik: mupaka mutubu: musitubu/ mubaache na manyumba yabo/
F: mm/
N: mm/ ...?...banasema murudie tu bila ya kutubu mu...?...yake: balisema mutubu: mubaache manyumba yabo/ ile ni utajiri wao/ s: ma:
[recording interrupted]
F: ...juu ya: mukanda: Baba Placide aliandika/
N: [overlapping] eeh: eeh: ile barua wa Baba Placide:
F: mm/
N: ?sawa balieleza asema bon: eeh: kama banamielezea asema: pa [claps] kurudia Katolik: mupaka mutubu: musitubu/
F: musitubu?
N: eheh/ mubaache: nani: manyumba yabo/ hii ni utajiri wao/ mwee mufwate nani: eh: eklesia ya Jesu na Maria/
F: ah/
N: na njo muli: nani: twiko: nani: twiko/
F: mm/ muliona...
N: ...asa...
F: ... ile: ile: ile...
N: ...ile barua? hapa ...?...sikupata...?.../
F: ah/
N: eheh/ lakini ali: baba alisema: nani: ...?...baba muchungazi aliisha échouer/
K: eh mm/ eh/ tena: nazani kama vile alipataka yee habari: kuliko yake tena barua ingine ya kusema: katika za hii: yule miye kuwa: kuwa kuna tubu bote: hata mutu moja: hata wa mawazo ya kwanza: hata ya mawazo ya pili: tunaweza kuungana na: naye/ na siye kama ile yote tunaweza kufanya: nazani ni ile ililetesha batu wa kutaka kuyua asema kama: tukaangirie hivi kila mara mutu mwenye nyumba: iko na mutu ku mukono: kila mara iko nakupiga wanapiga: inafaa kumuacha mu hii nyumba yake/
F: mm/
K: na sisi tunapenda kutoka: lakini kizima tunabakia nacho/ tutayenga...?...maana yake hatutaweza ku ...?...inchi pashipo kuwa na nyu...
F: ...na nyumba/
K: ni kule sasa tutaweza kufanya kadiri: lakini tunayua kama: tuko na ile mawazo ile njo namulingia Père Placide: ile mawazo: kanisa ya Jamaa ya: JATAF/
F: eeh/
K: ku ukimya/
F: Baba Lutema alikuwa ku: na correspondance na Baba Placide?
N: non/ a: hakumujua hapana/
K: na yee hakumujua hapana/
N: hamujua hapana/ mbele ba....?...
F: [overlapping] ...tena: minaona coincidence sawa mu: munasema: date ya JATAF mu Kalemie ni septante-si...
N and K: ...c'est septante-six/
F: ni mwaka ya kufwa/
N: ah alikuw mwaka ya kufa Baba/
K: eeh/
N: ndiyo/ mm/
F: sasa bale bi: ba inje bana: banawaza kusem: banaweza kusema bon: ah: baliongojea tu: lufu ya Baba Placide:
N: ya Baba Placide:
K: mm/
F: kiisha balikimbia/
K: mm/
F: si vile?
K: mm/
N: sasa pale ba: alibakia nayee muzuri: bon: mawazo inyewe: ilianza nani: i: kutanishiwa: mbele ya Baba Placide kufa/
F: eheh/
N: ahah/ njo nakumbuka: ...?...
F:...yee alikuwa au courant/
N: mm/ bon/ sasa kule: nani: mbele Baba Placide haikujua: alipaletwa bale asema non: ba Jamaa: bote banatubu/
F: mm/
N: sasa ni pale ...?...nani: aliandika barua anatuma musema: ya kulia asema: es: bote banatubu hakubakia tena manjia ya kwanza mwenyewe hakutubu? tupate ungana naye/
F: mm/
N: sasa bababa wakati walipata ile habari: njo...?...?ba kumuandika tena asema: hapana: uku nani: tu: kupatia ingine: haikutubu/
F: mm/
N: unaona? kuko patie ingine na haikutubu/ sasa: ile mawazo ya nani: ya kutengenesha kanisa/ bon: madémarches ilianza tangu zamani/ eh/ naweza kusema bon: ile mwaka septante-sept inakamatiwa: njo ?Monseigneur ...?...bon: njo nani: eh: yee asema bukoshi/ njo ondoshea kanisa: kunaanza/
K: mm/
F: mm/
N: ...?...? iko mawazo...?...mbele kusikilizana na bapadri: bapadri: banani: balikatala: bon/
baa: eh: sasa njo: njo nazani c'est: eeh: njo wakati gouvernement alileta maconditions ku baJamaa/
F: c'est ça/ mm/
N: asema: huko wanamikataa/ muweze mukuchania tena ...?... à condition kama mufwate nani: eeh: kanuni ya nani: ya l'état/
F: mm/
N: à co: au conseiller de siège/ sasa ni pa kukamata ni paka conseiller de siège: njo nani: eeh: ...?... ku ?affaire ba nani:
F: [overlapping] ndiyo ndiyo/
N: ... ...?...wa Baba Placide/
F: ndiyo/

16. F: I have a final question.
K: Yes.
F: If Baba Placide were around now.
K: Mm.
F: How would he see the JATAF? A very difficult question.
K: Mm.
F: But you must be thinking about that, no?
K: Yes.
N: Yes.
K: We must think (about it).
N: Well. Greeting.[41]
K and F: Greeting.
N: (Your question) reminds me of something (that came up) in a meeting of the committee on the fifth, with the people from Kolwezi. What happened there would show the agonies of working together. Because it was Baba Placide who had said, the day will come when they chase the people of the Jamaa away.
F: He foresaw that?
N: [overlapping] He reckoned with it. He had that thought.
F: I see.
N: Mm. It came up in a conversation with Baba Alexandre. In the committee meeting he recalled something that had been said: (To understand) what happened (lit. was done) you had to be a person intelligent enough to understand the words of Baba Placide.  So, there was this incident, it happened like on a Saturday in 1960. Two babas were scrubbing (the floor) in a church, a church (where) the Jamaa (would go).
F: Scrubbing?
K: Yes.
N: ...?...scrubbing (the floor) in the church.
F: Yes.
N: The were scrubbing...?...
F: Mm.
N: They were scrubbing but, then, they started to quarrel over the one bucket (they had).
F: Mm.
N: When they went for the bucket and the baba who got there (first) refused to let go of it and raised his voice: Let's say you go visiting to houses that are not yours at an hour when there is light. As the days go by you give up scrubbing those houses. Mm.
 
What this statement means[42] is this: If you are someone who picks a fight you'll get into trouble and such people will be chased away. People are going to pray there, it is their place. Mm. Alright. Then there is another saying: The Jamaa is a tall tree climbing up Catholic churches. Alright. I don't know -- if you keep growing will they accept you? Mm.
F: Mm.
N: (What I want to say is): The Catholic (church) is the owner of the field, the tree (that grows) on its field is the Jamaa. When it is (fully) grown the owner of the fields is going to cut down this tree.
F: Mm.
N: Mm. Now, if Baba Placide would try to look (at this) he would see that what he kept talking about has come true.
F: Mm.
N: This is the place where the Jamaa is now, it is a church apart. And the time of trouble, that was in '73-'74, (that is), before Baba (Placide) died.
That was when it was said that the people of the Jamaa must abjure (their ways). The babas from Kolwezi put this before Baba Placide.
F: Mm.
 
N: They wrote to him. Baba (Placide) made it clear to them that, if the condition for your returning to the Catholic church is that you abjure, you should not do it. You should keep away from their houses.
F: Mm.
N: Mm. If they tell you to come back without abjuration, (fine). If they tell you to abjure then leave them their houses. Those are their possessions....
[recording interrupted]
F: ...about the letter Baba Placide wrote.
N: [overlapping] Yes. Yes, this letter from Baba Placide.
F: Mm.
N: (What it said was) that if they make it clear to you that [claps] you can go back to the Catholic church only if you abjure, don't do it.
F: Don't abjure?
N: Yes. Leave them in their houses, they belong to them. You should follow the church Jesus and Mary.
F: Ah.
N: And that's the one you belong to.
F: Mm. Did you see...
N: ...?...
F: ...this, this, this...
N: ...this letter? I haven't gotten hold of it.
F: Ah.
N: No. But baba Supervisor said that he (also) failed to get it.
K: Mm, yes. Also, I believe that he got the message in another letter (addressed) to him, saying, my position in this matter is this: No matter, whether all of them abjure or just a single person, whether they are of the first or of the second grade (of initiation), we can get together. And if we can do all this, I think, it will make people want to know (where they are). We should always look at the person who owns the house (and) at the one who is with him. Whenever he attacks you, you should leave him alone in that house of his.
F: Mm.
K: So we prefer to leave. But we still have the drive and we are going to build (our church) because we cannot live in the land without a...
F: ...a home.
K: We can take it from there, knowing that we have the thoughts that came to[43] Father Placide, the idea of a Jamaa like JATAF.
F: Yes.
K: (And we'll do this) quietly.
F: Did Baba Lutema correspond with Baba Placide?
N: No, he did not know him (personally).
K: He did not know him.
N: He did not know him. Before...
F: [overlapping] ... also, there is a coincidence I noticed when you said that the date when JATAF began in Kalemie was '76.
N and K: It was '77.
F: That was the year he died. [44]
N: Ah, that was year Baba (Placide) died.
K: Yes.
N: It was, mm.
F: So, people outside could say ah, they waited for the death of Baba Placide.
N: Of Baba Placide.
K: Mm.
F: Then they ran away.
K: Mm.
F: No?
K: Mm.
N: The idea (to found JATAF) came up when he was still well, before Baba Placide had died.
F: I see.
N: Yes. That's what I remember...?...
F: ...so he was informed (about JATAF).
N: Mm. At that time Baba Placide did not know about (JATAF). He was told no, all members of the Jamaa abjure.
F: Mm.
N: So that's when he wrote the letter he sent. In it he complained: Did all of them abjure, is there no one left among the members of the first grade who didn't abjure? (If there is on) we should find a way to get together with him.
F: Mm.
N: When the babas received this message they wrote back to him, saying that there are some who did not abjure.
F: Mm.
N: You see? There were some who did not abjure. Now, about the idea to establish a church. Preparations had begun before then. Yes. I can say that it was in the year '77 that the idea was taken on when Monseigneur issued the curse. That's when the start was made with a church.
K: Mm.
F: Mm.
N: Before that there were considerations to come to an understanding with the missionaries.[45] The missionaries refused. Then the government set the conditions for the people of the Jamaa.
F: That's it, mm.
N: (The government said) here they reject you (but) you can separate on the condition that you follow the laws of the state.
F: Mm.
N: (You can put you case) to the local counsel. Then the local counsel was retained and that was what happened in the affair...
F: [overlapping] Yes, yes.
N: ...?... of the followers of Baba Placide.
F: Yes.
 

17. tena: hmm: [pause] kila: kila maisha: iko maendelo/ sawa mwisho ya muntu fulani: munaanza ku utoto: munakomea: etcetera/ sasa mu mafundisho ya Jamaa: muna: muna: munaona maendeleo? sasa wee: mweye: mu: mu nini: mu: mu...?...JATAF/ [clears his throat] mutafundisha tu: mawazo ya Baba Placide/ mais tena: mutaendelea: non? [pause]
N: mm/
K: tunaona kama iko inaendelea/
F: namna gani? inaendelea: namna gani?
K: kuendelea?
F: mm/
K: basi tunaona wa kuzalikwa beko wanazalikwa kufwata tena mafundisho/
F: mm/
K: bon/ wale watu walikuwa kama walikuwa walikuwa baKristiani wanabakia: banalamuka/ wanakuwa kuingia sasa banamuishi tena mu uKristiani na juuri: vile vile wanakuwa frères tu ku makanisa: na batu kule habakuwa nafika tena ku makanisa: ni kule inatuletea kitumaini kama mafundisho itaendelea/ ...?...tena: tunaweza kufwata: ile mashauri ya wale wenyewe waliyofundisha ba ku mikinywa kwa kinywa na Baba Placide mwenyewe/ banatuletea mashauri: na...?...ile mashauri tuko tunakwenda naye: hata batoto yetu watabeba ile mashauri/
F: mm/
N: na tena...?...maendeleo: ni yee: zamani: ilikuwa tu ni mae: nani: ni kazi ya baba na mama/ bon/ lakini hapa sasa: nani: bon maendeleo ina: inaonekana juu inaendelisha...?... maisha ya kila nyumba muzima/
F: mm/
N: na batoto wote...
F: ...tu wote...
N: ...wote asema banayua...?...asema mu imani ya Jamaa/
F: mm/
N: zamani yote ni: hii ni kazi ya baba na mama: batototo beko nayo nje/ sasa: pale minawaza asema bon: ni pas moyen tunafanya: njo mawazo inakuwa nani: katika bantu mbili: sasa inakamata bon: nyumba muzima/
F: mm/
N: ahah/
F: mm/
N: ...?...kumbe: ane: ni ingine nani: alama ya maendeleo/
F: oui/
N: signe ya maendeleo/
F: ile minaona vile vile/ ile inaachana sana ya kwa: kwa Jamaa ya zamani/
N: mm/
F: zamani hatuone: eeeh....
K: ...watoto...
F: watoto hapana/ jamais/ ao ka: katoto/
K: hapana/
F: ku: nani: ku: tembea mu: ma: mafundisho: mais:
K: mm/
F: batoto sawa: quinze ans: seize ans: vingt ans: non/ hatuone/ [pause] oui/

17. Furthermore, mm [pause] Life always means development. The destiny of a person is that you begin with childhood, you grow up, and so on. Now, in the teachings of the Jamaa, do you see development? Right now you who belong to JATAF [clears his throat], are going to teach just the thoughts of Baba Placide. But you are still going to develop, no? [pause]
N: Mm.
K: We see that (the Jamaa) develops.
F: How? How does it develop?
K: Develop?
F: Mm.
K: Well, what we see is that those who get initiated (lit. born) still follow the teachings.
F: Mm.
K: Alright. Those were people who had been Christians (but) now they woke up. Now they joined (the Jamaa), they really tried to live (in the spirit of) Christianity. Thus they became brothers together with others who no longer went to church. That gave us hope that the teaching will make progress. Also, we can follow the counsel of those who were taught by Baba Placide himself.[46] They give us guidance which we follow and even our children will do that.
F: Mm.
N: Besides, in the past baba and mama were responsible for progress, nowadays progress shows when it affects the life of every household as a whole.
F: Mm.
N: Including all the children.
F: Everyone.
N: All of them live with trust in the Jamaa.
F: Mm.
N: In the past all this concerned baba and mama, not their children. Now, when I think about it I tell myself that cannot continue with this. Instead of sharing the thoughts only among two people, they now take hold of the entire house.
F: Mm.
N: Yes.
N: So that is a one sign of progress.
F: Yes.
N: A sign of progress.
F: I see that, too. It is quite different from what used to be the case in the Jamaa of the past.
N: Mm.
F: In those days we didn't see...
K: ...children...
F: ...children, no. Never. Except small children...
K: No.
F: ... who would be wandering around during instruction. But...
K: Mm.
F: ...we never saw young people, fifteen, sixteen, or twenty years old, no. [pause] Yes, (that's how it used to be).
 

18. bon/ eeh: mi sina na: hapa sasa: na: maulizo ingine: ile: kumbe nitaweza kufunga/ nitasoma/ mara ingine uko na: na ulizo juu ya: ya iko manque de temps/ [pause] muli: ile ile vitabu vimbili:
N: mm/
F: muli: mulis: muliandika hapa mu Lubumbashi/
N: aah...
K: mawazo ilipata...
N: [overlapping] bali: balinitumia bruillon:
F: brouillon:
N: ...?...sasa ni miye assigner nitatapika/
F: brouillon ilitoka ku: Kalemie?
N: ilitoka Kalemie/
F: Kalemie/ na wee ulitapper?
N: eheh/
F: ahah/
N: mm/
F: na be: bo beko na: na: na exemplaire moya...
N: [overlapping] ...exemplaire...
F: identique?
N: eheh/ i: non: ilikuwa inaapprouvé partout / s: ilikuwa tappé juste/ ya...?...stencils/
F: ah bon/
N: oui/
F: ah bon/ ça c'est donc pour toute: toute: eh: toute l'église?
N: toute l'église/
F: eheh/ très bien/ na: mm: aah: tena mulikuwa sawa mu: na katekismo? si ulisema?
N: mm/ bon: hii: eh: ka: katekismo ilifanyiwa ...?...yo vile ilipatia tu: basimamizi ya nini: ya mikini/
F: ahah/
N: basimamizi ya nani ya: unaona masections: ah na mu paroisses: njo ana: basimamizi wafundishe mafundisho/
F: ahah/
N: mm/ ile: nani: a:
F: [overlapping] ...ah...
N: ...alikuwa ba...
F: ...niko na ulizo moya tena/ ile statistique uliniyapat: ulinipatia...?...
N: mm/
F: ...ni: ni maaa: ma: maindividus ao macouples?
N: non: maindividus/
F: individus?
N: oui/
F: individus/
N: mm: maindividus/
F: ahah/
N: ahah/ njo kulikuwa bamama: bababa: bamama: na batoto/
F: mm/
N: mm/
F: muko na: mara ingine: na baveu...?... kusema mu Swahili veuve: ao ao veuf?
N: in: ina wajane/
K: wajane/
N: bale/ eh/ lakini hapa sasa nani: ...?...tu projèt moya: juu nani: ...?...kubachunga/
F: ahah/
N: ahah/ lakini mupaka asema haina attribué tu nani: baite tu mafamilles: lakini u: eh ni: eeh: sijui ...?...programme nani ita....?....juu ya ba nani: ya baveufs/
F: mm/
N: mm/
F: donc: munaanza kukumbuka juu ya maoeuvres sociales ao?
N: kuijua maoeuvres sociales:
F: na tena ingine?
N: ah...
F: ingine: mutafanya nini te: tena?
K: ile: tunaangaria hali ya économie:
F: mm/
K: kama économie inatembea muzuri: ni kule sasa tutaweza kamata ile makazi kwenda...?...: kila kazi munaanza kuifanya kama hamna: mu si hali ya kuweza kuenea: haitanguka/
F: c'est ça/
K: mm: sasa tunapikania kwanza: économie mbele ilikuwa ni kiri/
F: mm/
K: sasa kiri tunona inatembea/
F: kiri?
N: culte/
F: ni culte?
N: eeh/
K: inatembea/
N: culte nani...?....inaanza...?...
K: ...sasa inaanza kuonyesha njia muzuri/ sasa ile upande ya culte:
F: mm/
K: tunaona kama: iko hoki/
F: mm/
K: sasa tunaangaria: ile:
N: mm/
K: développement:
N: eeh/ sasa mambo nani:économiques:
K: économiques...
N: ...?...au fraix de masi: mambo sociales/
K: njo sasa itaweza...?...kuangaria matière ya kuweza kukamata: ile moyens/ paka tukiishe kuingia sasa mu assemblée/
F: ah/
K: njo tutaweza kamata ile fulani: tutaweza kutolea/
F: eyo/
K: eeh/
F: eheh/ [pause] c'est ça/ na: hapa sasa: ts: haina muzuri muzuri sana eh?
N: oui/
F: ile: économie/
N: oui/
F: eko ma: eko paka mateso/
K: mm/
F: kwa bantu/ bon/ tulisahabu kintu? sijui:
[to the cook who enters and interrupts us] baba utuhurumie/ utuhurumie cinq minutes/
Cook: ...?... iko midi sasa/
F: non non non/ papa:
Cook: sitaweza ... [recording stopped]
 

18. Alright. Right now I don't have other questions, so I could turn off (the cassette player). I'll listen[47] (to the recording). Perhaps you have a question but time is running out. [pause]. (About) those two books.[48]
N: Mm.
F: You wrote them here in Lubumbashi.
N: Well...
K: The idea came from...
N: [overlapping] ...a draft was sent to me.
F: A draft.
N: And I was to do the typing.
F: Did the draft come from Kalemie?
N: It came from Kalemie.
F: (From) Kalemie. And you did the typing?
N: Yes.
F: I see.
N: Mm.
F: And they have a copy...
N: [overlapping] ...a copy...
F: ... (one) that is identical?
N: Yes. They were approved of everywhere, the typing, on stencils, was correct.
F: Ah, alright.
N: Yes.
F: Alright. So now this is for the whole church?
N: The whole church.
F: Yes. Very good. You also had a sort of catechism, is that what you said?
N: Mm. The catechism that was put together was available only to the heads in the towns.
F: I see.
N: The heads of – you see, there are the sections in parishes that have heads who are charged with the teaching.
F: I see.
N: Mm. The person...
F: [overlapping] ...ah...
N: ... who was...
F: ...I do have another question. The statistics you gave me.
N: Mm.
F: Were individual (members) counted our couples?
N: No, individuals.
F: Individuals?
N: Yes.
F: Individuals.
N: Yes.
F: Individuals.
N: Mm, individuals.
F: I see.
N: (Counted) were men, women, and children.
F: Mm.
N: Mm.
F: Are there sometimes widows – how do you say this in Swahili, widow or widower?
N: They are wajane.
K: Wajane.
N: About those, yes, right now there is a project to take care of them.
F: I see.
N: Yes. But so far no one is charged with it, they should just call on families (for help). However, I don't know whether there is a program (of aid) to widowed people.
F: Mm.
N: Mm.
F: So you begin to think about welfare work, or?
N: Getting knowledgeable about welfare work.
F: And are there other (projects)?
N: Well....
F: What else are you planning to do?
K: About that – we watch the state of the economy.
F: Mm.
K: If the economy does well we will be able to take up such projects. If the situation is not good enough every project you start is going to fail.[49]
F: That's right.
K: Mm, right now we are struggling with the economy but, in the first place, it depends on kiri.
F: Mm.
K: We now see that kiri is doing well.
F: Kiri?
N: Culte.[50]
F: Cult?
N: Yes.
K: It's on the way.
N: Worship begins...
K: ...now it seems on a good track. As far as worship is concerned...
F: Mm.
K: We see that it is ok.
F: Mm.
K: Now we are watching...
N: Mm.
K: ... (the economic) development.
N: Yes. Now it's economic interests...
K: ... economic...
N: ... at the expense of social concerns.
K: We can now pay attention to getting the funds, as soon as we go to the (general) assembly.
F: Ah.
K: Then we can take them, whatever they are, and give them away.
F: I see.
K: Yes.
F: Yes. [pause] That's it. Right now it is not really doing well, right?
N: Yes.
F: The economy.
N: Yes.
F: There is just misery.
K: Mm.
F: Among the people. Alright. Did we forget something? I don't know...[to the cook who enters and interrupts us] Excuse us. baba, give us five minutes.
Cook: ...?... it is noon now.
F: No, no, no, no. Papa...
Cook: I can't... [recording stopped]
 

19. F: bon: tumalize donc/ donc:
K: eeh: ile majiri inaambuliza bale bababa:
F: mm/
K: saba/
F: mm/
K: bale tunasikia/ sisikie: eh: ?kabrik: bale batu balifunda mbali mbali?
F: non: hapana/ ni kusema: [pauses] nili: nilibauliza bamingi mais: alisema: sawa vile ni f: nikupatie mufano moya:
N: mm/
F: ilikuwa kwa Baba: Munjaji: Munjanji Laurent/
K: Laurent/ ahah/
F: anasema: bon: nilisiki: niliisha kusikia mulikuwa baba saba/
N: mm/
F: zamani/ mm? asema: na yee anasema: ndiyo/ tulikuwa saba/ alafu mama yake: alikuwa tu mbali: mu: mu nyumba: asema: wongo/
K and N: [chuckle]
F: tulikuwa bamingi/
K: eh/
N: eheh/
F: donc: hata mu mwanzo: hata mu mwanzo balikuwa sawa vingt: sawa...
N: mm/
F: ...vingt-cinq: sawa munaona mu liste...
N: ya kwa kuuliza/
F: mais: kiisha ilitoka: adisi moya juu ya: ya baba saba/ ha?
K: mm/
F: na tena kila: kila baba alikuwa na msululu ya: na msululu yake ya baba saba ya kuachana/
K: eeh/
N: mm/
F: donc: bon: baba saba ni kusema tu: ni namna ya kusema: bale ba mu mwanzo/
N: ku mwanzo/
K: [overlapping] mu mwanzo/
F: kama balikuwa saba: ao sita: ao munane: ao vingt-cinq: hatujue/
N: mm/
F: eh? hatujue/
N: mm/
F: za: ni: juu mu mwanzo yangu: sawa vile mi: niliona tangu zamani mu soixante-six déjà: ilikuwa: ilikuwa: eh: na anda: na na: na: na Baba Bertin vile vile:
K: mm/
F: Placide: Baba Placide asema oh non non/ baache ile baba saba ...?.../ tulikuwa: tulikuwa bamingi/
N: njo mahabari zangu ku liste ya vingt-quatre/
F: oui/
N: eeh: vingt-quatre/
F: oui/ oui oui/
N: vingt-quatre/
F: eh/
N: mm/
F: eh/ bon/ tuma: sijui: nilisahabu kintu moya kikubwa? sinon:
N: ni kusema mawazo yote:
F: tuliuliza/
N: tunauliza/
F: bon/ tusikilizane donc: juu ya: ya mukazi moya/
N: mukazi moya?
F: aaah: [end of recording]
 

19. F: Alright, so let's come to an end.
K: Well, (I have a question) – what brought up this talk of the (founding) fathers?
F: Mm.
K: The seven (of them).
F: Mm.
K: The ones we keep hearing of. I don't understand this, did they learn (the teachings) separately, in different places?
F: No. How shall I say? [pause] I asked many people (about that) but the answer would be – I'm going to give you an example.
N: Mm.
F: It was at Baba Munjanji's, Munjanji Laurent.
K: Laurent, I see.
F: He was talking  (and I said to him) I have heard that you were seven babas.
N: Mm.
F: In those days, mm? And he said yes, there were seven of us. But his mama who happened to be elsewhere in the house called out: (That's a) lie.
K and N: [chuckle]
F: There were many of us.
K: Yes.
N: I see.
F: So, even in the beginning, even in the beginning there were maybe twenty...
N: Mm.
F: ... twenty-five, as you can take it from the list...
N: ... (you get) when you ask.
F: But then this legend of the seven fathers came up, you understand?
K: Mm.
F: Also, every baba had his own list of the seven fathers that was not the same (as that of others).
K: I see.
N: Mm.
F: In other words, seven fathers is just a figure of speech, meaning those who were there at the beginning.
N: At the beginning.
K: [overlapping] At the beginning.
F: Whether there were seven, or six, or eight, or twenty-five, we don't know.
N: Mm.
F: You understand? We don't know.
N: Mm.
F: This is something I realized long ago, in '66, when I started (research) with Father Bertin.
K: Mm.
F: Baba Placide said, oh no, no. They should stop (talking) about seven fathers. We were many of us.
N: The information I had was on a list of twenty-four.
F: Yes.
N: Yes, twenty-four.[51]
F: Yes. Yes.
N: Twenty-four.
F: Yes.
N: Mm.
F: Alright, I don't know, did I forget something important? If not...
N: Everything we could think about...
F: ...we asked.
N: We did.
F: Fine, so let's agree about (a meeting) on Monday.
N: Monday?
F: Let's see... [end of recording]