1. F: ...[Baba] Lutema: Baba Kimuni: na Baba [claps]: Nyembo Thomas/
N: mm/
F: juu ya kusumbulia mambo: vile ilikuwa: ku Jamaa Takatifu mu Afrika: vile mulianza/ mais: mbele Baba Lutema uko na: maulizo/
L: ndiyo/
F: ulize tu/
L: eeh: ulizo langu ni iko sababu: nilipata: ujumbe:
F: mm/
L: na ...?...siku nyingi: kama: kuna Père moya alikuya/ banasema ni Père Fabien/
F: mm/
L: eeh? na ule ujumbe wakati ulifika: nilishtuka/ moyo wangu: niliona furaha kama kweli kumbe: kuna watu wenye kukumbuka
maneno ya Baba Placido/
F: mm/
L: ...?... kama ni yetu kiyake/
F: mm/
L: ilikuwa furaha yetu ya kwanza/
F: mm/
L: sasa wakati tulifika hapa: hatukuonana: tulirudi ...?...ku: kukosana/
F: mm/
L: sasa kintu tunapenda kuulizayo wakati tunapata habari kama ulikuya tena: kufwata ile mawazo/ sisi tunapenda kuuliza unakata moya namna gani? kwa kujulika na ile mambo kuifwata zaidi/
F: mm/
L: njo ulizo letu/
F: mm/
L: eeh/ [chuckles]
F: kwa: mbele munapashwa kujua wazi/
L: hh/
F: kama wee unaniita Père/
L: mm/
F: eh? kweli nilikuwa Père zamani:
L: mm/
F: mais ile: ile umpère: niliacha zamani/
L: mm/
F: sasa ni: ile wakati: ili nilikuwa Musonoi/
L: ndiyo/
F: nilikuwa déjà na mawazo: niliacha/ et puis: [sigh] nilitumika wee: wee: wee/ kazi yangu: ni kusikia:
L: hh/
F: mbele mawazo wa: yake ya Père Placide/
L: mm/
F: maneno mbele ya kujua juu ya Jamaa: tulijua: Père Placide/
L: mm/
F: ha?
L: mm/
F: surtout: juu ya kitabu yake:
L: mm/
F: Philosophie bantoue/ ule: hii: ile mu:
L: ndiyo/
F: tuko naye/
L: mm/
F: nilikuwa ku: masomo: ku Bulaya: tena ku:
Amérique: tena nilikuwa kijana sana:
L: mm/
F: na: ts: muyomba yangu/ muyomba yangu yee vile vile alikuwa: eh: anthropologue na: missionaire/ très très connu: et: na yee alitufundisha mambo ya: philosophie bantoue/
L: mm/
F: wa mbele/ mais hatukuwe na mawazo kama njo mwanzo wa Jamaa hapana/
L: mm/
F: te: tena bantu bami: bamingi haba: habaone: connexion:
L: mm/
F: ya Philosophie Bantoue na Jamaa hapana/
L: mm/
F: Thomas anajua mi niliandika ...
N: ...ndiyo/
F: eh: ile moya mu français: inaandika juu ya ku: ku: kuonyesha...
L: ... hh/
F: ni kweli: Jamaa: zama: kwa mawazo yake:
L: mm/
F: a: ilianza: au moins: ku: ku ile kitabu ya: ya: philosophie bantoue/
L: hh/
F: unaona: mi: niko professeur mu université: kazi yangu ni kufundisha/
L: mm/
F: mais si kufundisha tu bule: mais: ufundi fulani fulani/ no: ni vraiment ku: kubaelezea wantu/
L: mm/
F: kubaonyesha: namna ya kuwaza: kule ku Afrique:
L: mm/
F: ni namna gani/
L: mm/
F: kama: basikie/
L: mm/
F: sawa vile nili: nilikuletea: sasa mufano ya: ya bale bazungu wa sasa watoto:
L: mm: ndiyo/
F: banakatala/ ile ni mubaya/
L: mm/
F: mais bana: banakatala juu ya nini? habajue kintu/
L: mm/
F: habajue kintu
L: ni vile/
F: donc: eh: [to someone entering] oui? [brief interruption] ...sawa vile nilisema: kazi yangu ni ku: kubaelezea ma: ni kazi nguvu sana/
L: mm/
F: mm? mbele ilifaa nifunde luga mbili: français na swahili:
L: mm/
F: na tulifanya miaka na miaka: bon/ sasa niko na mawazo: ya kuandika kitabu ingine/
L: mm/
F: juu ya Jamaa/
L: hh/
F: ha? maneno: bo: sasa: ile: ile kitabu muko naye: ilikuwa il y a vingt ans/ [claps]
L: ndiyo/
F: mm?
L: ndiyo/
F: Jamaa iliendelea/
L: mm/
F: kwa namna yote:
L: [clears his throat]
F: kwa namna yote: kwa: kuaachana/ tuko na maJamaa:
L: ndiyo mingi/
F: mingi mingi sasa: eh?
L: mm/
F: bon: ni ile kazi niko naye sasa/
L: ndiyo/
F: mm? ...?... tena: sawa vile nilifanya mu mwanzo: si kusema: nipite mbio mbio: kuaangaria kiloko: non/ inafaa: surtout inafaa: kusumbulia na bantu: na:
L: mm/
F: kama bo bananiletee mawazo yabo/ njo kazi yangu/
L: mm/ mm/ ni vizuri/ mm/
 

1. F: ... (We are meeting with Baba) Lutema, Baba Kimuni, and Baba [claps] Nyembo Thomas.
N: Mm.
F: To talk about how things used to be in the Holy Jamaa in Africa (JATAF), how you began (with it). But before that, Baba Lutema, you have some questions.
L: Yes.
F: (Go ahead) ask.
L: Well, my question regards a message I had.
F: Mm.
L: Some time ago. It was about a certain Father who had come. They said it was Father Fabian.
F: Mm.
L: You understand? And when this message arrived I was thrilled. In my heart I was glad to see that it was true that there were people who remembered the troubles of Baba Placide.
F: Mm.
L: That his side is ours.[1]
F: Mm.
L: That was our joy to begin with.
F: Mm.
L: Then, when we came here (to Lubumbashi) we did not see each other. So we went back, having missed each other.
F: Mm.
L: Now, what we liked to ask you at the time when we had the news (of your arrival) was whether you still followed those thoughts. We want to ask: How did you make the break -- given your knowledge of those things you had followed so thoroughly.
F: Mm.
L: That is our question.
F: Mm.
L: Yes. [chuckles]
F: First of all, you need to be clear about something.
L: Yes.
F: When you call me Father.
L: Mm.
F: Right? It is true, I was a Father once.
L: Mm.
F: But the priesthood is something I left behind long ago.
L: Mm.
F: Now, even in those days when I was (doing research) in Musonoi.
L: Yes.
F: I already thought that it was something I left behind. And then [sigh] I worked (hard) for a long time. My job is to understand.
L: Yes.
F: To begin with, the thoughts of Father Placide (Tempels).
L: Mm.
F: Because before I knew about the Jamaa I knew of Father Placide.
L: Mm.
F: You understand?
L: Mm.
F: Above all, through his book.
L: Mm.
F: Bantu Philosophy. That one...
L: Yes.
F: ... I owned.
L: Mm.
F: (That was) when I studied in Europe and in America. I was still quite young then.
L: Mm.
F: And I had an uncle on my mother’s side.[2] My uncle was also an anthropologist and missionary, quite famous, and he taught us the elements of Bantu philosophy.
L: Mm.
F: That came first. But we had no idea that this (book) was the origin of the Jamaa.
L: Mm.
F: Also, many people still don't see the connection.
L: Mm.
F: The one between Bantu Philosophy and the Jamaa.
L: Mm.
F: Thomas knows that I wrote...
N: Yes.
F: ...this one piece in French. It was written to show...
L: Yes.
F: ...that it is true:  In his thoughts, the Jamaa...
L: Mm.
F: ... originated in this book on Bantu philosophy, if not earlier.
L: Yes.
F: You see, I am a university professor. My job is to teach.
L: Mm.
F: But it is not just about teaching one or the other subject. No, it is really to explain about people.
L: Mm.
F: Show them how they think, over there in Africa.
L: Mm.
F: (Show them) how.
L: Mm.
F: So that (those whom I teach) may understand.
L: Mm.
F: Like in the example I gave you, of the young Europeans nowadays.
L: Mm, yes.
F: They refuse (to understand). That is bad.
L: Mm.
F: But why is it they refuse? (Because) they are ignorant.
L: Mm.
F: They are ignorant.
L: That’s how it is.
F: So, well, [to someone entering, in French] yes? [brief interruption] ... as I was saying, my job is to inform them. It is very hard work.
L: Mm.
F: You understand? First I had to learn two languages, French and Swahili.
L: Mm.
F: And then we worked for many years. Alright. Now I am thinking of writing another book.
L: Mm.
F: About the Jamaa.
L: Yes.
F: You understand? Because the book you have now[3] – that was twenty years ago. [claps]
L: Yes.
F: Mm?
L: Yes.
F: (Meanwhile) the Jamaa continued and developed.
L: Mm.
F: In all sorts of ways.
L: [clears his throat]
F: In all sorts of different ways. (Now) we have several Jamaas.
L: Yes, there are many.
F: There are lots of them nowadays, right?
L: Mm.
F: Alright, that is the task I face now.
L: Yes.
F: Mm? Also, like I did things from the beginning, I am not going to work with short visits, taking a quick look at things. No, what needs to be done above all is talk with people.
L: Mm.
F: So that they can tell me what they think. That is my job.
L: Mm, mm. This is good. Mm.
 

2. F: bon/ pengine: [hesitates] tutaweza kuanza:
L: hh/
F: utaweza kutuelezea mbele: kidogo juu ya maisha yako:
L: mm/
F: na vile: sawa vile wee uliingia: kiisha yako uliingia ku mu Jamaa/
L: ni vile/ ni kweli: maulizo tutafanya nyuma: nitakuuliza pole pole:
F: Mm.
L: kwa maisha yangu: kwa jumla: miye nizalikwa mu mwaka elfu mia kenda makumi tatu na munane/
F: mm/ kumbe: uko mudogo yangu:
L: ahah/
F: kwa mwaka moya/
L: ndiyo/ [chuckles]
All: [laugh]
L: ni vile/ nizalika: sasa: [noise] kiisha kidogo: niliweza kuingia ku masomo: tangu cinquante- deux na mu cinquante- six...
F: wapi? ilikuwa ...?...?
L: Sola/
F: Sola: mu:
T: côté ya Kongolo/
L: côté...
F: ...[overlapping] Kongolo: Kongolo/ aah/
L: Sola/ mu mille neuf cent cinquante-six mi njo nilimaliza cinquième année/
F: aah/ mm/
L: sasa sikuongeze masomo ingine: kwa sababu baba hakupenda/
F: mm/
L: mi nifwate tena masomo/ na ...?...desturi yake asili: alikuwa vile: kama anaona mototo mwanaume:
F: mm/
L: hana na wengi: anapenda bakie pale pale/
F: pale pale tu/
L: mimi nilibakia pale: ni kaz: kazi ya commerçant/
F: mm/ alikuwa mupagani? ba: ba...
L: baba alikuwa mupagani/
F: mm/
L: mama mupagani:
F: mm/
L: mi njo alibatiziwa/
F: mm/
L: lakini mbele kubatiziwa: nilikosa ubatizo: mwaka moja/ maana yake nilikuwa mu se: mu: kati: wakati ubatizo niliweza kuuliza ulizo moya: lakini bapères baliweza kunipatia matata: wakasema unauliza vibaya/
F: Mm.
L: nilikuwa na ulizo juu ya bamalaika: sababu niliuliza namna gani: katika maisha mbinguni:
F: eheh/
L: minaona sanamu ya bantu mweusi tu/
F: eheh/
L: mu moto wa milele hii/
F: eeh/
L: alafu: mu mbinguni paka bazungu/ sasa bakasema hapana: usilize vile/ nikakosa ubatizo mwaka moja/
F: eh eh/
L: bakasema utabatiziwa: wee uko na kiburi/
F: balikuwa makali...?...
L: ahah: kiisha kidogo: nikabatiziwa sasa mu: cinquante-cinq/
F: mm/
L: na mu cinquante-six nikamaliza...
F: ...[overlapping] kule ku mugini ao ku Mission?
L: paka ku Mission Sola kwenyewe/
F: Sola/
L: bapères roma/
F: balikuwa bapadri ya: ya: nkundi:
K: Pères Blancs:
F: Pères Blancs?
L: aah/ Pères Blancs/
 

2. F: Fine. Perhaps [hesitates] we could start.
L: Yes.
F: First you could tell me a little about your life.
L: Mm.
F: How you ended up becoming a member of the Jamaa.
L: Alright then, we’ll leave questions for later when I can ask them without hurrying.
F: Mm.
L: About my life, (I give you) a summary: I was born in 1938.
F: Mm. So you are my junior.
L: Ahah.
F: By one year
L: Yes. [chuckles]
All: [laugh]
L: That’s it. I was born and then [noise], after a while, I was able to go to school, from ’52 on and in ’56...
F: ... Where? Where was that?
L: (In) Sola.
F: Sola, that’s ...
T: ... close to Kongolo.
L: close...
F: ...[overlapping] to Kongolo. Kongolo, I see.
L: Sola. In 1956 I finished fifth grade.
F: I see, mm.
L: I had no further education then because my father didn’t like me...
F: Mm.
L: ...to go on with school. That’s what he was used to. Seeing that I was a boy...
F: Mm.
L: ... – he didn’t have many (sons) – he liked him to stay right there.
F: Right there.
L: So I stayed there and I worked as a trader.
F: Mm. Was he a pagan?
L: Father was a pagan.
F: Mm.
L: Mother was a pagan.
F:  Mm.
L: I am the one who got baptized.
F: Mm.
L: However, before it came to that I missed baptism by a year.  What happened was that, when it was time for baptism, I dared to ask a certain question but the Fathers had the power to cause trouble for me. What you are asking, they said, is bad.
F: Mm.
L: I had a question about angels. How come, I asked, when it comes to life in heaven.
F: Yes.
L: I only see pictures of black people...
F: Yes.
L: ... (roasting) in hell?[4]
F: Yes.
L: Whereas in heaven there are only whites. So then they said, you should not ask (questions) like that. So I missed baptism by a year.
F: You don’t say.
L: They said, you are going to bet baptized (but you) are arrogant.
F: They were severe...?....
L: Yes. Not much later I was baptized in ’55.
F: Mm.
L: And in ’56 I finished (school).
F: ... [overlapping] (were you baptized) in the village or at the Mission?
L: At Sola Mission itself. 
F: Sola.
L: (Run by) Roman Catholic fathers.
F: They were fathers who belonged to the order...
K: ...of the White Fathers.
F: The White Fathers?
L: Yes, the White Fathers.
 

3. kiisha kidogo naanza kazi ya commerçant: sasa: pole pole katika matukio kuingia mu Jamaa: niliingia tu: wakati Jamaa inaanza nilikuwa naanza nasaboter/ wakati naona bantu banasema baba: mama:
F: mm/
L: mi niko nabatukana: nabazarau:
F: mm/
L: ni kintu gani banasema hivi?
F: mm/
L: lakini: nilitukiwa na matukio moya: ilinipermettre niingie ku Jamaa/ sawa nilikuwa na rafiki yangu moja: ule rafiki yangu: kiisha kidogo alikuya karibu: iko na bibi yake iko na baraka: akasema: ni wee unapatia bibi ya: bibi yangu mimba/
F: mm/
L: sasa nikasema kumbe kubakia warafiki ba: washiyo wa Mungu: haina muzuri/ kumbe niingie sasa mu Jamaa/ vile mikaangia sasa mu Jamaa/ naliingia mu Jamaa na: mu mille neuf cent soixante-cinq/
F: mu mille neuf cent soixante-cinq? déjà? ni zamani/
L: zamani eh/
F: nani aliingisha Jamaa kule? Kongolo/
L: aliingiza Jamaa kule: ni: ni: Urbain Mbiliki: ni mutoto wa Baba Valentin Kaumba/ njo...
F: ... ah voilà/
K: njo bamingi tu....
L: njo baba ya ku...?... mawazo/
F: aah/
L: ...wa pale/
F: nani? jina yake?
L: Mbiliki Urbain/
F: Mbiliki?
K: ...?...
L: na Soké Emile/
F: iko: iko mu: muzima sasa Mbiliki?
L: Mbiliki iko muzima/
K: [overlapping] ...?...
F: aah/
L: eeh/
K: mm/ iko Kongolo/
L: iko Kongolo/
F: Kon: Kongolo?
L: eeh/
F: na yee alikutana Jamaa namna gani?
L: yeye ule Mbiliki?
F: oui/
L: yeye alipokea Jamaa hapa/
F: hapa/
L: Père Placide/
F: ku Père Placide/
L: habari wa: wakati ya ?nga...?...
K: ....?...njo balipata: anaweka njia ya tatu kwa Père Placide/
L: kwa Père Placide/
F: si kule ku Kolwezi...?...
L: ...[overlapping] ah: hapana/ Kolwezi:
K: Kolwezi:
L: Mbiliki: na Soké Emile: batu haba bawili:
F: mm/
L: njo balipokea baraka hapa: na banakuwa kufundisha sasa Kongolo/
F: Kongolo: eh/
L: njo banatawanya Kongolo: Kalemie: kule kote/
F: ahaah/
N: mille neuf cent soixante/
L: mille neuf cent soixante/ [to N] eh?
N: njo ...?... yangu/
L: eeh/
N: si njo....?....ya Belges...
L: bale balianza: mbele yetu alianza/ mi: nilikuwa na: namusema sana huyu Kongolo: bya sema ni bitu hamuna ingia vile/ pale mi niko nafanya commerçant/
F: oui oui/
L: eeh/ [chuckles]
F: eh/
L: kiisha kidogo: ni kweli: tuliendelea: sasa: niliona kama: mawazo yale wakati niliipokea: kwangu: ilinifaa sana/ ku maisha/ sawa vile nilibadilisha mara moja/
F: mm/
 

3. Not much later I began to work as a trader. Now we slowly come to how it happened that I joined the Jamaa, which I did eventually although at first, when the Jamaa came up, I opposed it. At that time I just saw people calling (each other) baba, mama.
F: Mm.
L: I called them bad names and despised them.
F: Mm.
L: Talking like that, what is this about?
F: Mm.
L: But then something happened that made me (overcome my prejudices) and allowed me to join the Jamaa. I used to have a friend. One day he came to my house with his wife who was blessed (with child). It was you, he said, who got my wife pregnant.
F: Mm.
L: That’s when I said to stay friends without God is no good. Thus I should join the Jamaa. So I joined the Jamaa. I joined the Jamaa in 1965.
F: In 1965 already? That’s long ago.
L: Long ago, yes.
F: Who introduced the Jamaa there in Kongolo?
L: The one who introduced the Jamaa there was Urbain Mbiliki, a child of Baba Valentin Kaumba. He was...
F: ... Ah, I see.
K: There were many of them...
L: ...whose “father in thoughts”[5] (he was).
F: I see.
L: People from that region.
F: Who (was it again)? What was his name?
L: Mbiliki Urbain.
F: Mbiliki?
K: ...?...
L: And Soké Emile.
F: Is he still alive, Mbiliki?
L: Mbiliki is alive.
K: [overlapping]...?...
F: I see.
L: Yes/
K: Mm, he is in Kongolo.
L: He is in Kongolo.
F: Kongolo?
L: Yes.
F: And how did he come across the Jamaa?
L: This Mbiliki?
F: Yes.
L: He received the Jamaa here (in Lubumbashi).
F: Here.
L: (From) Father Placide.
F: From Father Placide.
L: He had heard about it at the time of ...?...
K: That was when they received (the grade) – he made the “third way” with Father Placide.
F: Wasn’t that in Kolwezi...?...?
L: ...[overlapping] Ah, not (in) Kolwezi.
K: (Not in) in Kolwezi.
L: Mbiliki and Soké Emile, the two of them...
F: Mm.
L: ...received the blessing here (in Lubumbashi) and they are teaching in Kongolo.
F: In Kongolo, yes.
L: They are the ones who propagated (the Jamaa) in Kongolo, Kalemie, everywhere in that region.
F: I see.
N: in 1960.
L: 1960, [to N] right?
N: That’s my (date of birth?).
L: I see.
N: Wasn’t that when the Belgians...
L: They (Mbiliki and Soké) began before us. I talked a lot to him, the one in Kongolo, but what was said did not penetrate. (After all) at that time I was busy working as a trader.
F: Yes, yes.
L: Yes. [chuckles]
F: Yes.
L: Not much later, to tell the truth, we made progress. Now I saw that I really needed the thoughts I had picked up then for my life. That is how I changed at once.[6]
F: Mm.
 

4. L: sasa nilitambua kama hii mawazo italeta vita kiisha/ mi nilijua vile/ na bampères/ nilijua hivi: kwas sababu: niliona: mara moja nalikuwa na ule père ...?... Père Joseph ?Diagre: mi nilikuwa natembea sana: nilifanya na circulation/ pita huku: kwenda huku: kwenda huku: kwenda huku:
F: mm/
L: sasa nilijua habari mingi zaidi/
F: c’est ça/
L: sasa na...?... kujua mahabari: ule père...?...ananiambia: angaria: Kabalo habafanye muzuri/ tena Kongolo: habafanye muzuri/ bon: Kalemie habafanye muzuri/ sasa mi nikajiuliza: huyu père alifundisha mwenzake: namna gani anasema habafanye muzuri? sasa minaanza kubakia na ile: mawazo ku moyo asema: ah: ts: kutakuwa magumu/ mi niko nafwata Jamaa lakini na ...?... kutakuwa: magumu/
F: magumu/
L: sasa pole pole tunaongeza: pale mina: sasa nakwenda mu: mu septante [hesitates] mu septante-sept...?...septante se: c‘est six: napita Kalemie sasa/
F: mm/
L: pale napita Kalemie: minaongeza Jamaa na pa...
N: soixante-six?
L: eh?
N: soixante-six/
L: [overlapping] soixante-six c’est ...?.../ napita Kalemie/ soixante-six napita Kalemie/ hh: naongeza mawazo ya Jamaa: napata njia ya kwanza/
F: kule Kalemie?
L: kule Kalemie/
F: mm/
L: kiisha kupata...
F: kwa: kwa baba gani kule?
L: kwa Baba sasa Vincent Kumbi...?...mutoto wa Emile Soké/
F: aah voilà/
L: ahah/ iko catéchèse: alikuwa paka na ku bulaya: sasa ?aliretourner naye Kalemie hata sasa/
F: aah/
L: lakini hatuna naye mu nkundi hapana/
F: hapana/
L: aah/
F: hapana/
L: kiisha kidogo: tunapata njia ya mpili/ pale tunapata njia ya mpili: ule père: Joseph Diagre akarudi/ kutoka ku Belgique:
F: mm/
L: akatuletea habari ya situation ya Père: eh: ne: Tempels/
F: mm/
L: akasema nilionana naye: nilikuwa na kuangaria: sasa: wakati alitoka kule: balipatana Père Tempels kama mi nitakwenda kuweka Jamaa iwe hii: mbili/ na ni kule alikuya kwanza mamipango yake kuharibisha Jamaa huku kote/ ku Nord Shaba kote/
bon: tukatamuke cha kwanza: akapita si bote: baJOC: ba: Scout: beLegionnaires: na si bote baJamaa: kwenda kutuweka mu nyumba moya: tunafanya: ni: nini: ile wanafanya: ma: congrès: na musali: na kufunga:
F: mm/
L: ...muda wa siku tatu: tuko nakulya paka bule: na kutuonyesha mafoto mbali mbali/ ile ilikuwa njia: ya kuharibisha mipango ya: ya Jamaa/
F: [overlapping] ya Jamaa/ kule ku Kalemie?
L: ku Kalemie/ sisi tukaona: ni hatari/ kiisha kidogo: pale pale: akageuza mawazo ya Jamaa: akasema: ile Jamaa ya Père Placide: haina bien/
F: eeh/
L: inafaa tufwate sasa: nouveau régime: ni kustahili/
F: mm/
L: hapana ile mipango: yenye ya Père Placide alitufundisha/ tukamate pulan mupya/
F: mm/
L: sasa ile pulan mupya akasema: ninawaomba: hapana kut: sema kama mama ni kioo cha baba/
F: mm/
L: ao baba ni kioo cha: cha mama/
F: cha mama/
L: sisi tutakataa/
F: ahah/
L: sasa: ni mwanzo wa magumu/
 

4. L: There was a moment when I realized that these ideas[7] were going to result in conflict with the priests, I just knew it. I knew it because I saw it at once when I met this priest, Father Joseph ?Diagre.[8] (You see) I moved around a lot (in those days), visiting here, there, and everywhere.
F: Mm.
L: That way I gathered a lot of information.
F: That’s it.
L: Now, as I was gathering information, this priest told me, look, at Kabalo, they (the Jamaa) are not doing well,[9] the same in Kongolo and in Kalemie. So I asked myself, this priest was the one who taught his people, how can he say they are not doing well? I kept this thought in my heart, telling myself, ah, there will be difficulties. I am a follower of the Jamaa but there will be difficulties.
F: Difficulties.
L: Still, slowly we made progress and in ’70 [hesitates] in ’77, or rather ’76 I visited Kalemie.
F: Mm.
L: When I visited I made progress in the Jamaa...
N: (Don’t you mean) ’66?
L: Sorry?
N: In ’66.
L: [overlapping] ’66, that’s right. I visited Kalemie in ’66, yes, and I made progress in the Jamaa and attained the “first way.”[10]
F: There in Kalemie?
L: There in Kalemie.
F: Mm.
L: After I had that...
F: Who was the baba (who initiated) you there?
L: At the time, that was Vincent Kumbi, a child (by initiation) of Emile Soké.
F: Ah, there you are.
L: Yes. He had been to Europe for[11] catechesis and had just come back to Kalemie.
F: I see.
L: But he was not a member of our group.
F: He wasn’t.
L: No.
F: He wasn’t.
L: After a while we made the “second way.”[12] When we made the second way this priest, Joseph De Jaeger came back from Belgium.
F: Mm.
L: He brought us news regarding the situation of Father Tempels.
F: Mm.
L: We saw each other, he said, and I looked (at him). When it was time for him to leave they reached an understanding[13] with Father Tempels: I should go ahead and organize things such that there would be two kinds of Jamaa. That was when he began to issue directives that were to destroy the Jamaa everywhere in this region, everywhere in North Shaba (Katanga).
Alright, he said, let us begin by announcing: Every one of us, members of the JOC, the Boy Scouts, the Legion (of Mary), and all of us, members of the Jamaa were to be put in one building and (told) to hold closed prayer meetings...
F: Mm.
L: ...for three days, which we wasted with things like a slide show. That was a way to do away with the rules of -- the Jamaa.
F: [overlapping] Of the Jamaa.[14] (That happened) there in Kalemie?
L: In Kalemie. We saw that it was dangerous. It didn’t take long for him to change the ideas of the Jamaa. The Jamaa of Father Placide, he said, is no good.
F: I see.
L: Now we were to follow a new regime, which would be the proper one.
F: Mm.
L: Not the rules that Father Placide had taught us. We should adopt a new pulan.[15]
F: Mm.
L: He said, from now on, according to the new pulan, I ask them no longer to say that mama is the mirror of baba.
F: Mm.
L: Or that baba is the mirror of -- of mama.
F: Of mama.[16]
L: We won't allow this.
F: I see.
L: So then the difficulties started.
 

5. F: mais: plan: ile wakati uli: ulitaya plan sasa: mulikuwa na plan? ile wakati ile?
L: ndiyo tu: sawa tulikuwa na plan tulikuwa nafunda:
F: ku?
L: eeh/
F: iliandikwa?
L: ah ndiyo tuko naye plan: tuko naye/
F: oui oui/
L: eeh/
F: ile ilitoka: nani: Musonoi? ao?
L: ile ya tangu Musonoi: na tangu ile yote ilikuwa nafunda/ mi niko na plans yote/
F: aah/
L: eh/ hata sasa tuliisha kufanya kitabu cha njia ya kwanza/
F: eeh?
L: kipisho ku mastencils/
F: c’est ça/
L: kitatoka sasa/ maneno si tukakamata plans yote:
F: [to K and N] si ile t: nilikuonyesha? mwaka jana/ nilikuwa naye/
N: uli: ulionyesha ya nani: ya Kolwezi:
F: eh/
N: sasa: bu: kule kama bipande inyee ya mafundisho: balisahabu/
F: ah bon/
N: ....?...
K: [overlapping] mm/
N: eeh/
L: hata ile ya Kolwezi bo balifanya: na  hii ya Kolwezi ...?... na plan namna mbili/
F: mm/
L: na hii ya hapa niko na plan: bo: ya ku Lubumbashi: na Kalemie: sasa tunachanga  yote pamoya/ sawa ni mule plan: mwenyewe alichagua: mambo ingine anatosha: na mambo ingine: anaweka/
F: anaweka/ mm/
K: sasa wakati anasema inafaa sasa mufwate mwanga: musifwata mutu/
F: ndiyo/
L: mama ao baba/
F: mm/
L: ile ...?...tukasema haiwezekane: kwa sababu kuweza kufwata mwanga: mwanga ni nini?
F: mm/
L: si tunafwata muntu kwa sababu: zambi tunakosea ni muntu/ tena namukosea na Mungu/ sasa tutafwata mwanga? tutafwata mwanga kiisha kufanya zambi: tufwate mwanga/ mwanga ni kitu gani?
F: mm/
L: sasa: tukakosana/
F: eheh/
L: hapa sasa tukawa kwanza: tuka...?... mbali mbali: ku mafundisho hatufwate tena hapana/ ile kapita/
F: mm/
 

5. F: But about this plan you just mentioned, did you have one at that time?
L: Yes, we had a plan which we were studying.
F: In (Kalemie)?
L: Yes.
F: Was it in writing?
L: Ah, yes, we have it, we have that plan.
F: Yes.
L: Yes.
F: Was this the one that came from Musonoi?
L: The one from Musonoi and all the others I studied. I have all the plans.
F: I see.
L: Yes. Just now we finished a book on the “first way.”
F: Really?
L: To be copied from stencils.
F: That’s it.
L: It will come out presently. What we did was to take all the plans into consideration.
F: [to K and N] Was it not the one I showed you? I had it with me last year.
N: You showed the one from Kolwezi.
F: Yes.
N: (It looked) like they had forgotten several chapters of the teachings.[17]
F: Ah, alright.
N: ...?...
K: [overlapping] mm/
N: Yes.
L: The plan they had done in Kolwezi came in two versions.
F: Mm.
L: And about this plan I have with me here – what we did was to combine the Lubumbashi and Kalemie versions. In plan there (in Kolwezi) the one who prepared it made selections. Some things he left out, others he added.
F: He added, mm.
K: Then he told us, you should follow the light, don’t follow a person.
F: Yes.
L: Neither mama nor baba.
F: Mm.
L: That is impossible, we said. Because to follow the light – what is the light?
F: Mm.
L: We follow a human being because it is a human being we sin against. Of course, I also sinned against God. Now we should follow the light? We are going to follow the light and when we have sinned we should follow the light. What kind of thing is the light?
F: Mm.
L: We sinned against each other.
F: Yes
L: So then we began to disperse and no longer followed the teachings. That’s what happened.
F: Mm.
 

6. L: kiisha kidogo wakati tunapata njia ya tatu: kule baba tulikuwa naye anaondoka: anakwenda Moba/ njo hapa sasa vita yetu inakuya/ donc anasema sasa wee bote ba njia ya tatu: inafaa mufanye comité/
F: mm/
L: tulikuwa bantu munane/ sasa mutoshe...
F: ...tena mu Kalemie?
L: ah mu Kalemie paka vile/ mutoshe bantu: ba tatu: bafanye comité na askofu/ batano bapokeake maneno ku bale batatu/ si tukasema hapana/ kama kututenda vile bantu munane tuliisha kuwa miaka karibu munane [chuckles] ?sitwa moja/ bengine balikala ya ...?... na askofu: na bengine hapana: ts: tutaona bitatuletea hatari/
F: mm/
L: sasa pa kufanya maconférences: ni pale sasa analeta: mitaa/
F: mitaa?
L: mitaa/
N: maquartiers/
L: maquartiers/
F: ah oui oui oui/
L: ahah/
N: mm/
L: bakasema sasa mwee bote tangu baLegionnaires mpaka baJamistes: munapashwa sasa: mu mitaa/
F: mm/ ...?...
L: mm/ si tukasema: hapana/ si tutakuwa baJamistes/ hatuweze kuwa ku mitaa/
F: mm/ oui/  [short pause] ?tuendelee tu baba/
L: ndiyo/ ni pale sasa: kiisha askofu akaandika barua: akasema: kama ...?...mambo ya mitaa: itakuwa vibaya/
F: askofu alikuwa nani kule?
L: askofu: Mulolwa/
F: Mulolwa/
L: Mulolwa/
N: Joseph Mulolwa/
L: Joseph Mulolwa/
F: mm/
L: hh/ kiisha kidogo tuliweza kuendelea na ile ma: conflits: maréunions tunafanya: tunamusikilisha: haiwezekana/
F: mm/
L: kiisha kidogo: tukafukuzwa/ bakatuandikia barua banasema: inafaa mutoke/ kwa sababu munakatala munakosa utii/ munakatala mambo ya mitaa: ya askofu/
F: balitaya hii: kufukuza hii: ...
L: ...bana...
F: ...balitaya: excommunication? non/
L: hapana/
F: hapana/
L: banasema tu: kama: munakosa utii: munapashwa: kutoka: mu eklesia/
F: mm/
L: hivi munakosa utii maana yake munajitenga na: na eklesia/
F: eklesia/
L: sisi sasa tukatoka/
F: uli: baliandika mu Swahili? ao mu...
L: ...baliandika mu Swahili/
F: [overlapping] mu Swahili/
L: tuko naye yote ile/
F: mm/
L: tukatoka/
F: mm/
L: kiisha kitukatoka tukasema hapana/ Baba Placido: hakufundishe kama: tunaweza kufanya église/ anasema mutakuwa pamoya na wasaserdos pamoya/
F: mm/
L: tunajifunza/ tukafanya mwezi moya inje/
F: mm/
L: kiisha tukapatana tena asema turudie/ njo tukarudi si bote ku mara pamoya/ kiisha iko mara moya: njo bakaliki déclination/ responsabilité/ mu le vingt-sept: mwezi ya kenda à peu près/ bakariki...?...
F: mu mwaka? muba:
L: mu septante s...
F: ...?...
L: mu septante six/
F: septante-six/
 

6. L: Not long after that we received the “third way." The baba (who initiated us) then left to move to Moba. So then we had our war (with the church authorities). Then he[18] said, all of you who are in the “third way” should now set up a committee.
F: Mm.
L: There were eight of us. (He said) you should select...
F: ...(are we) still in Kalemie?
L: Yes, in Kalemie. You should put forward three persons to form a committee with the bishop. The other five may be kept informed by those three. No way, we said, if you do this to us – eight persons – it is going to take us about eight years to come up with a decision. Some may side with the bishop, others won’t. We shall see, this is going to be dangerous for us.
F: Mm.
L: When (the bishop?) made his speeches he came up with mitaa.
F: Mitaa?
L: Mitaa.
N: [in French] Neighborhoods.
L: Neighborhoods.
F: Ah, yes, I understand.
L: Yes.
N: Mm.
L: They said, all of you, from members of the Legion (of Mary) to members of the Jamaa, must get organized in neighborhoods.
F: Mm. ...?...
L: Mm. We said, no, we'll be members of the Jamaa. We cannot be (organized) in neighborhoods.
F: Mm, yes. [short pause] Let’s just continue, baba.
L: Yes. So eventually the bishop wrote a letter, saying that if you reject the scheme of  neighborhoods this will be no good.
F: Who was the bishop there?
L: Bishop Mulolwa.
F: Mulolwa.
L Mulolwa.
N: Joseph Mulolwa.
F: Mm.
L: Yes. These conflicts went on for a while. We had meetings and convinced him that (his project) could not be carried out.
F: Mm.
L: Not much later we were banished. They wrote us a letter saying you must leave. Because you don’t accept the bishop’s project of neighborhoods, you refuse obedience.
F: How did they call this expulsion...
F: ...they...
F: ...did they call it excommunication? No.
L: No
F: No.
L: They just said, if you refuse obedience you must leave the church.
F: Mm.
L: By refusing obedience you removed yourselves from -- the church.
F: The church.
L: That’s when we left.
F: Was this written in Swahili? Or in...
L: ...it was written in Swahili.
F: [overlapping] In Swahili.
L: I have all those (documents).
F: Mm.
L: So we left.
F: Mm.
L: After a while outside (the church) we said no, Baba Placide did not teach us that we can start a (separate) church. What he said was, you should be united with the priests.
F: Mm.
L: For a month, we stayed outside (the church) while we sought a solution (lit. taught ourselves).
F: Mm.
L: In the end we agreed that we should return. So we all returned, at once and together. It did not take long for them to reject this (and deny any) responsibility. That was on September 27, or so, when they dismissed (us).
F: What was the year they did this?
L: In seventy s...
F: ...?...
L: In ’76.
F: ’76.
 

7. L: mm/ njo kututosha kabisa lote/ sasa wakati banaandika déc: déclination: banatuma ku l’état: ku sous-région: procureur: ku gendarmerie: fasi yote/
F: bale ba: ku: kwa ba: ku kwa askofu?
L: ba askofu na anasigner vile/ njo tuna: tunakamata ile: ile déclination: tukafanya mafotocopies tukatuma mpaka [claps] commissaire d’état: ni pale sasa tulipata: barua: ya kufanya: église/
F: ni kusema: ni: nisikie: si: eeh: sikia vizuri/
L: mm/
F: déclination: ilitoka kwa?
L: ilitoka kwa askofu/
K and N: [overlapping] kwa askofu/
F: na wee ulikamata ile décli: copie ya déclination...
L: [overlapping] déclination: tunafanya fotocopie/
F: eeh/
L: tunatuma commissaire d’état ku....?.../ kwa kuomba église/
F: eeh/
L: sema tunakuwa inje/             
F: oui/
L: sasa wakati tunatoka inje: kulikuwa watu walitufwata mingi zaidi: tukafungwa/ siku kumi na moya ku prison/
F: [to N] sawa vile ulinielezea/
L: mm/
N: mm/
L: fungwa siku kumi na moya/ 
F: bote?
L: nilifungwa: nifungwa miye/
F: oui/
L: na muntu moya: mwenzangu moya: Gerard Kitume/
F: ilikuwa namna: bali: balimipiga tena? tout ça?
L: hapana/ hatukupigwa/
N or K: [overlapping]...?...
F: hapana/
L: tulifungwa tu ku prison:
F: mm/
L: kiisha siku kiloko: bakatutosha: asema mutafute njia yenu peke/ na hapa sasa tuna...?...
F: ...nani alisema vile?
L: l’état/
F: l’état/
N: mm/
L: tukaandika:
F: mm/
L: mikanda: kutuma: ni pale sasa tukaanza: mwendo ya kufanya église/
F: mm/
L: sasa wakati tunacontinuer kufanya église: ili...?...kutosha: kwa sababu ya kumalisha hii bado: ilikuwa kazi/ kwa kutafuta liturgie/
F: mm/
L: tulifanya liturgie ya sita: haikupatana muzuri/ tunakwalya: minaanguka paka: ngambo ya katolik/
F: mm/
L: ...?...kutu: kutuambia munafanya bidi yetu: muache/ si tunaacha/ tunafanya hivi/ paka vile/ paka mu le quatorze:mai: mille neuf cent quatre-vingt-deux: njo tuna ...?...kupatana si bote kuangaria muzima: na waKolwezi: njo liturgie ilitoka ile tunafanya na leo/
F: mm/
L: aah/
F: ni vile/
L: njo hapa sasa tunaongeza: kanisa paka: na leo unatuona/
F: mm/
L: eheh/ maisha yetu: tulikuwa batu walikuwa na maisha muzuri sana: tulikuwa na mali: tunakuwa na magazin: yote iliharibika kwa sababu: ya kujenga: kanisa/
F: mm/
L: na leo: hatuna kintu/ paka vile/
F: paka vile/
L: sababu tulifanyisha ile récensement: fasi yote: Bukavu: mupaka: hapa Lubumbashi: bo ba: bote balikatala kufanya récensement: Kolwezi: fasi yote: ni paka hii Makuta ya: ya magazin yetu:
F: mm/
L: tulilipia bantu ya kule nilifanya récensement: tuone nombre ya bantu tutaanza  ?mu kanisa ba: ni bangapi/
F: [overlapping] ni bangapi/ mm/
L: mpaka leo oui/
 

7. L: Mm. That was when our expulsion became definitive. They put their refusal in writing and sent (copies) to the State, the (authorities) of the sous-region, the public prosecutor, to the police, everywhere.
F: “They” meaning the bishop and his people?
L: His people, with the bishop’s signature. Then we took this (letter of) refusal and made photocopies which we took to the commissaire d’état.[19] That was when we got a letter (authorizing us) to found a church.
F: That means – let me make sure I understand this.
L: Mm.
F: (The letter of ) refusal came from?
L: It came from the bishop.
K and N: [overlapping] From the bishop.
F: And you took a copy of (this letter) of refusal...
L: [overlapping] of the refusal and made a photocopy.
F: Yes.
L: Which we sent to the commissaire d’état to apply (for authorization to found) a church.
F: Yes
L: Saying we were outside (the Catholic church).
F: Yes.
L: During that time outside many people followed us, so we were locked up in prison for eleven days.
F: [to N] As you explained to me.
L: Mm.
N: Mm.
L: Being locked up for eleven days.
F: All of you?
L: I was locked up, me....
F: Yes.
L: ... and another person, a fellow of mine, Gérard Kitume.
F: How was it, did they beat you and all that?
L: No, we were not beaten.
N or K: [overlapping]...?...
F: No.
L: We were just locked up in prison.
F: Mm.
L: After a few days the let us out. You are going to find your way alone, they said. And we still...?...
F: ... who said this?
L: The State.
F: The State.
N: Mm.
L: Then we wrote...
F: Mm.
L: ...letters and sent them off, that’s when we got the founding of a church under way.
F: Mm.
L: We continued (our efforts) to set up a church. [20] This took a while because there was an unfinished task: look for a liturgy.
F: Mm.
L:  We came up with a liturgy that was neither here nor there[21] and was not well received. We were stuck. I just ended up with a catholic (liturgy).
F: Mm.
L: ...?... we were told, you are making an effort on our behalf (but) give it up. Which is what we did, just like that. It was only on May 14, 1982, when all of us, including those from Kolwezi, got together to take a look at everything, that the liturgy we celebrate to this day came out.
F: Mm.
L: Yes.
F: That’s how it is.
L: Now we go on building the church, as you see us today.
F: Mm.
L: Yes. As far as our life was concerned we were doing very well, we were wealthy, had a shop – all this was ruined as a result of building a church.
F: Mm.
L: And today we have nothing, that’s how it is.
F: That’s how it is.
L: Also, because of this census we (wanted to have) done, everywhere from Bukavu to Lubumbashi. They all refused to do[22] the census, at Kolwezi and everywhere. It was (financed) only with the money from our shop.
F: Mm.
L: (Which was used) to pay the local people that (made it possible for me) to do the census to find out the number of people with whom we could start the church.
F: [overlapping] How many, mm.
L: (That’s how it has been) up to this day, yes.
 

8. F: bon/ turudie ke: tena ku: maulizo ingine ingine/
L: mm/
F: ile wakati: ah tu: turudie ku manzo/
L: mm/
F: ku mwanzo/ hata ku mwanzo: [pauses] katika Jamaa ilikuwa: ilikuwa magi: magumu ingine ingine/
L: mm/
F: sawa: niliona mu soixante-six: mu Musonoi balikuwa na: nkundi: mbili/
L: mm/
F: hii moya bali: baliita:
L: Katete/
F: Katete/
L: mm/
F: mm/ sasa wee una: una: unaona ile mambo namna gani? kwenu/ mulikuwa tena: vile vile na Katete?
L: kwetu: Katete: ni bale bantu tulitengana nabo/
F: mm/
L: tangu mbele tu/
F: mm/
L: hata bale bengine bengine bakafundisha bintu nataya Baba Emile Sokee: ni baba ya bule fundisha...
F: nani? mil: mil:
L: Emile Sokee/
F: Emile Sokee/
L: mm/ ni mumoja wa baKatete: maneno balikuwa pamoya na père: na Baba Urbain:
F: ...?... Sokee ni sawa: sawa: jina Belge/
L: aah....
N: ndiyo ....?... alikamata jina vile/
L: eheh/ jina ni Sokee Emile/
F: oui/
L: eheh/
N: ...?...
L: ni bale baKatete/
F: oui/
L: eh/ baKatete ni batu: s: ni batu balianza na: ni lwa Mbeya/ ni batu walikuwa mu Kitawala/ sasa mara moja katika ya ile mafundisho: balizalaka bantu ya kutosha/ lakini bote tulitengana nabo/ lakini si tulikosana baPères: haina problème ...?...hapana/ kwetu tulifwatia ku ...?... Nord Shaba: haikuwa hapa/
F: mm/  
L: ilikuwa tu hapa Lubumbashi: na kwenda Kolwezi na Likasi ...?.../ na bale sisi hatupatana hapana/
F: hapana/
L: ahah/
F: hapana/
L: ahah/ [pauses] na leo tuna magumu: kwa sababu Jamaa: kiisha ku: kuachana: si tunaanza église: wakati tulianza mambo ya église: tulikuwa wengi/
F: mm/
L: na wale wengine walibakia katolik/
F: mm/
L: sasa wakati banaona kanisa inaendelea: na bo banaacha/ sasa bantu tunabaita ni Jamaa kibambazi/ maana yake: habana kwa kwenda/ banabakia tu hivi: cha kufanya: habaone/ na njo bengine banatupiganisha na vita zaidi/
F: hapa sasa?
L: ndiyo/ lakini sasa inaonekana inaisha/
F: mm/
L: eheh/ inaisha/
F: ile wakati: [pauses] eh: ts: ya: sawa ss: soixante: sept/ si njo ilikuwa wakati balifukuza bamingi ku: Kongolo vile vile?
K or N: mm/
F: exco: exommunication?
L: ndiyo/ si...
F: ku Monseigneur ...?... nani huyu?
L: nani: ni Monseigneur paka nani: ni ku Joseph Diagre/
K: ni muntu yake ya..?.../
L: ni mu soixante...
F: ...no no: yee alikuwa ...?...mo: mo:  Monseigneur vile vile/ Monseigneur: eh:
L: lakini ruhusa ilit: ni nguvu ilikuwa kwa Père ule Joseph Diagre/
F: eeh/
L: ni kusema: ni mu soixante-deux/ ni Baba Albert...?...
N: ...soixante-deux watu wali...
L: soixante-deux...
N: watu walimu/
L: eeh/ walikuwa walimu/
N: mwanaweli/
K: wanaweli/ kulikuwa mwalimu: Kayembe Ernest: Kayembe:
F: ahah/
L: Sébastien Lungulwa: ...?...Albert: na...?..../ njo balikuwa ba kwanza/ hata mu historique mu kitabu tuku tunaandika: tuliisha kubatia mule/
F: eheh/
L: eh/ balifukuzwa: na kukatwa komunio: kiisha bakasambazwa/ Albert bo bakatuma hapa/ ...?... wanatuma Kabalo/ njo ili: ilikuwa vita ya kwanza/
F: mm/
L: bon/ na ule Père eh? alipata accident pa kutoka kule/
F: sa...?..
L: ...kwa sababu wakati anatoka kumuangaria Père Placide: yee asema toka hivi: motokari ukamugonga: akafunjika miguu yote/
F: eh eh/
L: hata leo yee iko kilema/
F: iko tena mu: Kongolo kule?
L: hapana ..?... iko: nani: iko: iko: Kalemie/
F: Kalemie/
L: aah/ alize...
K: ...Diagre?
L: eeh/
K: iko Kalemie/
L: iko Kalemie/ na ni: njo ali: anafanya vita kubwa zaidi/
F: mm/
L: eh/ sasa alikuya nabo kufanya kubwa zaidi ya m: ya kutotosha ile: Albert ?Bongas/ ni wa Allemagne: ni: muFlamand moya hivi/
F: Albert?
L: Albert Bongas/
F: Bongas?
L: aah/ Albert Bongas: ni père moya...
K: ...?...
L: iko wa Kalemie/ njo alitutosha kabisa/ sasa: mambo yote katika matukio: Mungu alikuwa anaonyesha yote/
F: mm/
L: kama utakwaa: sababu hakuna kintu kilipotea/
F: mm/
L: mutapata magumu: itakuwa hivi: itakuwa hivi: iko sawa tulitembea kirefu: bila woga: bila matatizo yote/ tulikuwa na kitumaini kama: Mungu ataongoza/ [pause]

8. F: Alright. Let’s go back to some other questions.
F: Mm.
F: At the time – ah, let’s just go back to the beginning.
L: Mm.
F: In the beginning, right from the start [pauses] there were all kinds of conflicts in the Jamaa.
L: Mm.
F: For instance, I observed in ’66 that at Musonoi there were two groups.
L: Mm.
F: One of them was called...
L: ... Katete.
F: Katete.
L: Mm.
F: Mm. Now, how do you see this affair? In your place, did you also have a Katete (group)?
L: In our place, Katete were those from whom he had separated.
F: Mm.
L: Right from the start.
F: Mm.
L: What those others taught (came from) this baba I mentioned, Emile Sokee who was a worthless baba...
F: Who was that? Mil, Mil...
L: Emile Sokee.
F: Emile Sokee.
L: Mm. His is one of the Katete. They were together with Baba Urbain.
F: ...?... Sokee, this sounds like a Belgian name.
L: Well.
N: Yes ...?... it’s a name he took.
L: Yes. The name is Sokee Emile.
F: Yes.
L: Right.
N: ...?...
L: Those are the Katete.
F: Yes.
L: Yes. The Katete, they are people -- they are people who were in the Kitawala (movement), originally from Mbeya.[23] What happened was, they initiated people who had been excluded  from instructions (in Jamaa doctrine). All of us kept away from them. But had we and the priests not done wrong to each other there wouldn’t have been a problem in our region where we followed (the Jamaa), in North Shaba, it wasn't (like) here.
F: Mm.
L: (The problem) was here in Lubumbashi and along the road to Kolwezi and Likasi. We have nothing to do with those people.
F: No
L: No.
F: No.
L: Right. [pauses] And today we still have problems because, when Jamaa had separated and we began with the business of founding a church, there were many of us.
F: Mm.
L: And there were those who remained Catholics.
F: Mm.
L: When they saw that the (new) church made progress they also left. We called them the Jamaa against the wall[24], meaning they had nowhere to go. They just went on with a routine but had no vision. Then there were others who really were at war with us.
F: Right now?
L: Yes, but it appears that this is coming to an end now.
F: Mm.
L: Yes, it’s over.
F: In those days, [pauses] around ’67, was that not also when many were expelled in Kongolo?
K or N: Mm.
F: By excommunication?
L: Yes, we...
F: By this Monseigneur, what was his name again?
L: Who was it, Monseigneur, what’s his name Joseph de Jaeger.
K: ...?...
L: That was in ’60...
F: ... no, no, the one who did it was Monseigneur, the bishop. Monseigneur [searching for his name]...
L: But the recommendation and opposition came from this Father Joseph de Jaeger.
F: I see.
L: What I am saying is that it was in ’62. There was a Baba Albert ...?...
N: ...in ’62 certain persons were (involved)...
L: In ’62.
N: ... they were teachers.
L: Yes, they were teachers.
N: Mwanaweli.
K: Wanaweli.[25] There was a teacher by name of Kayembe Ernest. Kayembe.
F: I see.
L: (And) Sebastien Lungulwa...?... Albert, and ...?...[26], they were the first. We named them in the history, in the book we wrote.
F: Yes.
L: Yes. They were expelled, cut off from communion, and finally accused in court. Albert they sent here (to Lubumbashi)...?...was sent to Kabalo. That was the first war.
F: Mm.
L: Alright. And would you know, this Father had an accident when he left there.
F: ...?...
L: When he left to see Father Placide. He told (his chauffeur) to get going, a car hit him, and he broke his legs.
F: Well, well.
L: Today he is a cripple.
F: Is he still there in Kongolo?
L: No, he is in Kalemie.
F: Kalemie.
L: Yes, he is old now.
K: ....de Jaeger?
L: Yes.
K: He is in Kalemie.
L: He is in Kalemie. And he was the one behind the all-out war.
F: Mm.
L: Yes. Then another one joined the efforts to expel us, this Albert ?Bongas. He is from Germany, or rather he is a Fleming.
F: Albert?
L: Albert Bongas
F: Bongas? [27].
L: Yes, Albert Bongas, a priest.
K: ...?...
L: From Kalemie. He was the one who wanted us out. Whatever happened during these events, God always showed us (the way).
F: Mm.
L: When you should stumble nothing is lost.
F: Mm.
L: You are going to have difficulties, that’s how it is going to be. We have been going on like that for a long time, without fear, and without confusion. We had the hope that God would make things go right. [pause]
 

9. F: wee: uli: ulikutana: Baba Placide?
L: Placide mi sikumuona/
F: hata?
L: namuona tu picha/
F: picha tu/
L: eheh/ sikumuona Placide/
F: mm/ muliandika barua? na: mulikuwa na correspondance na yee?
L: na Baba Placide?
F: eheh/
L: hapana/
F: hapana/
L: tuna historique tu ile ya kusema: batairudishe ni mweye: bataiendeshe ni mweye/ bazazi banatufundisha vile/
F: oui oui/
L: na sasa wakati tunaanza magumu iliendelea wa ko: tunaona batu banakosa mu imani: tuliyua kama banapoteza mawazo ya huyu muntu aliba: alibafundisha/
F: mm/
L: na yo sababu tulianza kanisa: ilikuwa lazima sasa: nitengeneze comité pastoral: ilianza na Baba Placido/
F: mm/
L: njo nawekapo comité pastoral national/
F: mm/
L: kwa kubasikilishe muzuri kama ni benye kitu: sababu balipokea mawazo wa Baba Pla: Placido/
F: [overlapping] Placide/
L: na yo tuko na kazi kuwasaidia sasa/
F: mm/
L: bawe na nguvu: ya ...?...waza kama bo baliona Baba Placido: beko na preuve/
F: mm/
L: wazi wazi: kumbe cha kupa initiation: inafaa bakamate hii mawazo: vizuri zaidi/
F: mm/
L: njo tunaweka comité national/ iko pa Kolwezi/
F: sasa?
K: mm/
L: ndiyo/
K: wa: kuko comité mu nani: comité pastoral: yo nani: iko basé pa Kolwezi/
L: pa Kolwezi/ lakini président: baliniweka paka miye/
F: mm/
L: sababu si tunaonao kubapatia njia...
F: ...ile ni ya sasa ao? non?
N: ilikuwa constitué sa: karibu tu wakati ulikuya/
L: ahah/
N: c’est ça/
L: ahah/
N: njo nao tulipanga: pamoya ya baba wa nini: balipata mawazo: kwa Baba Placide/
L: kwa Baba Placide eeh/
N: njo hii comit: comité/
F: ni ndani: ni banani sasa?
L: ni Kayao: Kanza Kayao/
N: [overlapping] Kanza/
L: na Nkonko/
K: Antoine/
L: Antoine/ ni Kitenge/
F: ule: ule: ule baba wa Pius?
L: wa Pius eeh/
N: eeh/
K: wa Pius/
L: sawa tuliona kama: tukileta administration  tu:
F: mm/
L: na église yetu: habitaendaka muzuri/
F: mm/
L: paka tuweke administration: tena tuweke na comité pastoral/
F: oui/
L: sababu bale beko ndani ya mu administration ni baorganisateurs/ kama beko nataka kuharibisha: inafaa bale bazee basha: bashaurie/
F: [overlapping] shaurie/
L: njo vile tunaweka comité mbili:
F: donc Nkonko:
L: na Kayao:
N: Kayalo/
F: Kayao?
L: muko Baba Nkonko: muko Baba...
F: Kayao?
L: Kayao: Maria/
K: Banza Remy/
F: Banza Remy?
L: Remy/
F: eko muzima?
L and K: eko muzima/
F: c’est vrai?
L: aah/ hh/ bon/ tunaweka: Baba: Mwamba Pierre/
F: Mwamba Pierre:
L: iko mule/ Tshibangu/
K: mm/
L: Mukile:
F: mm/
L: iko mule: na Mwanazovu/ Kingoma iko: ku région ya Maniema/ njo mwenyewe nafanya naye kazi circulation ya mu Zaire muzima/
F: ahah/
L: tangu tulianza/ yo mwenyewe tunapiga naye vita sana/ tunatembea huku na huku: fasi yote: tangu tulianza/ sasa...
F: ... ile mwakati yee anaanza?
L: tangu: tangu quatre-vingt...?...
K or N: ...?...
L: tangu mu sept: kwanza tu:
N: si yee alianza kazi tangu zamani:
L: tangu zamani/
N: mu comité: comité pastoral: ni...?...mwaka jana/
L: mwaka jana njo tulimuitia comité pastoral/
F: mm/
K: ahah/
F: na bo banatembea: ao banaikala kule ku?
L: bo habayatembea bado/ balipashwa kutembea mwaka huyu: sababu ya magumu ya kanisa ...?...tunasema: paka tulitengezwa mambo ya mu kanisa inamalizika:
F: oui/
L: baanze kutembea kwa kwenda kupana manjia ya kwanza na ya mpili na ya tatu/
F: oui/
L: ahah/
F: ile mambo tutafika kule: eh: mambo ya kanisa/
 

9. F: Have you met Baba Placide?
L: I never saw Placide.
F: Never?
L: I saw him on photographs.
F: Only on photographs.
L: Yes. I never saw Placide (in person).
F: Mm. Did you write letters? Did you correspond with him?
L: With Baba Placide?
F: Yes.
L: No.
F: No.
L: We have this traditional saying: Whether they make you come back or whether they make you go away, it depends on you. That’s what the ancestors taught us.
F: Yes, yes.
L: From the beginning, the problems just kept coming up. We saw that people lacked faith and we knew that they lost the thoughts this man (Baba Placide) had taught them.
F: Mm.
L: And since we had founded the church I saw the need to organize the pastoral committee that had begun with Baba Placide.
F: Mm.
L: So I set up a national pastoral committee.
F: Mm.
L: To make sure they really understood that what counted was that they had received the thoughts of Ba -- Baba Placide.
L: And now our task is to help them.
F: Mm.
L: So they would have the strength to think like those who saw Baba Placide. They have the proof.
F: Mm.
L: Thus it should be clear that to initiate (new members) they really have to heed those thoughts.
F: Mm.
L: So we set up a national committee. It (meets) in Kolwezi.
F: Right now?
K: Mm.
L: Yes.
K: There is a national committee, based in Kolwezi.
L: In Kolwezi. It was me they made the president.
F: Mm.
L: Because we saw how to show them the way...
F:.. this is this something recent, no?
N: It was constituted at about the time when you came (to Lubumbashi).
L: Yes.
N: That’s it.
L: Yes.
N: That was what we arranged together with babas who had received thoughts from Baba Placide.
L: From Baba Placide, yes.
N: That’s the committee.
F: Who are its members now?
L: There is Kayao: Kanza Kayao.
N: [overlapping] Kanza.
L: And Nkonko.
K: Antoine/
L: Antoine/ Kitenge?
F: The one who is the father of Pius?
L: Of Pius, yes.
N: Yes.
K: Of Pius.[28]
L: Then we saw that, if we just looked after the adminstration...
F: Mm.
L: ... of our church, things would not go well.
F: Mm.
L: So let's put up an administration but also a pastoral committee.
F: Yes.
L: Because those who are part of the administration are organizers. When they are likely to mess up, those elders should give them advice.
F: [overlapping] Give advice.
L: That’s why we set up two committees.
F: So (to go back to names), there was Nkonko.
L: And Kayao.
N: Kayalo.
F: Kayao?
L: There is Baba Nkonko, there is Baba...
F: Kayao?
L: (Mama) Kayao Maria.
K: Banza Remy.
F: Banza Remy?
L: Remy.
F: Is he (still) alive?[29]
L and K: He is alive.
F: Is that true?
L: Yes, it is. Alright. (Furthermore) we put Mwamba Pierre (on the committee).
F: Mwamba Pierre.
L: He is a member. Tshibangu...
K: Mm.
L: ...Mukile.
F: Mm.
L: He is a member there. And Mwanazovu. At Kingoma in the Maniema region. He is the one with whom I do the travelling everywhere in Zaire.
F: I see.
L: Ever since we started out he has been the one with whom we put up the fight (for our church). From the beginning, we travelled here, there, and everywhere. Now...
F: ... that’s when he started out?
L: Ever since ’80...?...
K or N: ...?..
L: Back in the seven(ties).
N: He was the one who began the work long ago.
L: Long ago.
N: On the pastoral committee, that was last year.
L: Last year we nominated him for the pastoral committee.
F: Mm.
K: Yes.
F: And do they (the members) travel or are they staying there (in Kolwezi)?
L: So far, they haven’t traveled. They were supposed to do that this year. Because of the problems with the church we said, only after the separation is definitive and the affairs of the church are settled.
F: Yes.
L: Then they may start traveling and go around initiating (people) in the first, second, and third way.
F: Yes.
L: Yes.
F: We’ll get to (talking about) matters regarding the church.
 

10. mais: kumbe: ile wakati ile: septante-cinq: septante-six/ mbele: hapa: mu Lubumbashi: tulikuwa na ile conférence ya waaskofu/
L: ndiyo/
K: mm/
F: eeh?
L: mm/
N: mm/
F: [correcting] mu septante-trois/
N: septante-trois/
L: ina: ilianza mu septante-et-un:
N: mm/
L: conférence kukosa ku ka: Kinshasa: réunion ikakosa: ikale kumalizika: hapa mu septante-trois/
N: mm ...?...
L: ile barua tuko nayo/
F: mm/
L: ile balisigner baaskofu bote/
F: mm/
L: tuko nayo/
F: ba...
L: ... iko na mambo mbili: kukana imani: na kuungama imani/
F: kuungama imani/
L: tuko nayo/
F: oui oui/
L: eh/
F: na kutubu vile...
L: kutubu vile/
N: mm/
L: na ile barua ...?...paka kupata majustice/ ilitumwa/
F: ah bon?
L: ahah/ njo ile ilitupatia njia zaidi/
F: ahah/
L: aah/
F: ya: namna gani?
L: sababu ile: wakati banafanya ile: balikuwa sûr kama Jamaa isiwake tena/
F: mm/
L: na bali: décider vile kama Jamaa inamalizika yo: yote/
F: yote/
L: lakini leo banasema Jamaa iru: irudie tena/
F: irudie tena/ mm/
L: na ma: si tunaandika yetu inasema pale Jamaa baliisha kukatala katolika hainako/ Père Placido: alifundisha Jamaa: na hii wazo kama ni muti anapanda kati: ya: miti minene/ lakini una uzima: lakini utasongwa sana/
F: mm/
L: alafu utapata magumu/ kiisha utapata utakuwa na buzi: buzima/
F: na buzima/
L: na leo magumu ilifika kweli: baliisonga: na leo beko banapenda tena Jamaa iru: irudie/
F: [overlapping] irudie/
L: iko nayo hamu tena/ banaita si ku Jamaa kato: katolika/
F: katolika: mm/
L: na si pale tuko na vita ile/
F: mm/
L: unasema sababu ya inyewe kwa Jamaa: katoliki nabalikatala mu septante-trois/ [pause]
F: mm/
 

10. But (let’s go back). First of all, at that time, around '75-’76, we had this Episcopal Conference here in Lubumbashi.
L: Yes.
K: Mm.
F: Right?
L: Mm.
N: Mm.
F: [correcting] In ’73 it was.
N: ’73.
L: Actually, it was in ’71.
N: Mm.
L: That was when the Conference (first) met in Kinshasa and failed (to come to a decision) which was finally reached here in ’73.
N: Mm...?...
L: We have that letter.
F: Mm.
L: The one signed by all the bishops.
F: Mm.
L: We have it.
F: They...
L: ...it was about two things, abjuration[30] and profession of faith.
F: Professing faith.
L: We have (that letter).
F: Yes, yes.
L: Yes.
F: And also confessing (errors).
L: Also confessing.
N: Mm.
L: This letter was sent to the court authorities.
F: Really?
L: Yes. It was this (letter), above all, that showed us the way.
F: I see.
L: Yes.
F: How so?
L: At the time when they wrote it they were sure that the Jamaa should no longer exist.
F: Mm.
L: And they decided that the Jamaa had come to an end – altogether.
F: Altogether.
L: Whereas today they say, the Jamaa should -- should come back again.
F: Should come back again, mm.
L: And then we wrote our letter, saying that the Jamaa which the Catholic (Church) rejected doesn’t exist. When Father Placide taught the Jamaa it was with the idea that it would be a tree that grows in the midst of big trees. You may be healthy but you will be under much pressure.
F: Mm.
L: You will have problems, though, before you finally have the -- the strength to live.
F: The strength to live.[31]
L: And today there is real trouble. They put pressure (on us) and would like the Jamaa to – to come back.
F: [overlapping] To come back.
L: It is wanted again, so they call us back to the Jamaa – called Catholic.
F: Catholic, mm.
L: And that is the conflict we are in.
F: Mm.
L: (If) you say it is because of the Jamaa, (you must remember) that the Catholic (Church) rejected them in ’73.
F: Mm.

11. F: ile wakati tena: ku: kumbe: bon/ mina: minajua ile: mu Musonoi na Kolwezi balikuwa na matata mbele ya septante-trois:
L: mm/
F: ah: juu ya nani: huyu Monseigneur Keuppens/
L and K: Kolwezi/
F: sijue alini: alibaita: bababa na bamama mara moya mara moya:
L: [overlapping] ahah/
F: ku: kuandikisha...
L: mikanda/
F: ku mikanda kule/
L: ah: tuko nayo mikanda yetu ya Kolwezi/
F: eeh/
L: ile yote baliita bababa: bababa Mwamba Pierre:
F: oui/
L: baliita bababa Ngoyi/
F: oui/
L: banabatia maulizo kama: unakubali utii: kanuni ya: eklesia?
F: mm/
L: na wee unas: kama unakubali: toka mu Jamaa: yee anakatala: yote tuko nayo/
F: na bo vile vile: vile vile ku Kolwezi:
L: hh/
F: ile wakati ile: balikuwa na: mawazo: ni kusema in: inafaa tufanye tu ek: eh: eklesia yetu/
L and K: ...?...
F: bo banatufukuza:
L: mm/
F: hatuwezi kuacha Jamaa:
L: hh/
F: na kusikilizina: kusikilizana na: na: bulamatari: inafaa tuwe: réconnu/
L: mm/
F: mm? na ile wakati: mulikuwa na: mulikuwa mulisikilizana Kalemie na: na Kolwezi?
L: ndiyo/ tulikuwa nasikilizana Jamaa yote kufwatana magumu/
F: mm/
L: pale baaskofu banaanza magumu septante-et- un: septante-deux: septante-trois:
F: oui/
L: Jamaa yote ilikuwa umo: umoja/
F: umoja/
L: japo tuko tunatembeleana:
F: mm/
L: tuliyakuwa najuana: kama kulikuwa na magumu/
F: mm/
L: pale tuko natoshwa: si tulikuwa nastari Kalemie/ tunabaombea waKol: waKolwezi/
F: mm/
L: bako nabatosha: si tunabaombea/ paka vile/
F: mm/
L: sasa wakati ule: si tunapata ile barua inatoka ku département justice:
F: mm/
L: ya  kusema inafaa: mufanye église: yenu:
F: mm/
L: ni pale sasa: tunakuwa contacte zaidi/
F: oui/
L: na bo: namna ya kubatosha: mu ile mateso balikuwa nayo sababu l’état beko banafwata kama hauna document hata: hata moya/
F: mm/
L: ni pale sasa tunaungana tangu mu Mbuji-Mayi: baManiema: na baKolwezi: na ...?... fasi yote/
F: unihurumie tena/ [recording interrupted]
 

11. F: Back to that time -- so, alright, what I know is that in Musonoi and Kolwezi they were in trouble before ’73.
L: Mm.
F: Because of what’s his name, this Monseigneur Keuppens.
L and K: In Kolwezi.
F:  I don’t know (exactly what happened but) he summoned babas and mamas, one by one.
L: [overlapping] Yes.
F: To have (their names) written down...
L: (In) documents.
F: ...in documents there (at his office).
L: Ah, we have the documents from Kolwezi.
F: I see.
L: Everything about the babas who were called, (among them) Mwamba Pierre.
F: Yes.
L: They called Baba Ngoyi.
F: Yes.
L: They asked them questions like, do you accept the commands and laws of the Church?
F: Mm.
L: And if you said you did (they told you) leave the Jamaa, which (the baba questioned) refused to do. We have all (those documents).
F: And in Kolwezi they also....
L: Yes.
F: ...they thought at that time, we have to found out own church.
L and K: ...?...
F: (The Catholic Church) expelled us.
L: Mm.
F: (But) we cannot give up the Jamaa.
L: Yes.
F: And to get along with the government we must be recognized.
L: Mm.
F: Right? In those days, were you in touch, Kalemie with Kolwezi?
L: Yes. In the Jamaa as a whole we agreed to face the problems together.
F: Mm.
L: When the bishops began to cause problems in ’71, ’72, ’73.
F: Yes.
L: The entire Jamaa was – united.
F: United.
L: That’s when we travelled (to visit) each other.
F: Mm.
L: We knew of each other and of the problems we had.
F: Mm.
L: After we were expelled we were hiding in Kalemie and prayed for (the Jamaa) in Kol –Kolwezi.
F: Mm.
L: When they were expelled we prayed for them. That’s how it was.
L: Then we got this letter coming from the Department of Justice.
F: Mm.
L: Telling us, you should found your church.
F: Mm.
L: That was when we were in contact all the time.
F: Yes.
L: And those whom they expelled suffered because the government was after them if you had no document at all.
F: Mm.
L: So then we came together with (the Jamaa) in Mbuji-Mayi, in the Maniema, in Kolwezi, in...?... and everywhere.
F: Excuse me. [recording interrupted]

12. eh: ni kusema ile wakati: eh: tulisumbulia ile: ku ile wakati: ku: ts: kwanza:
L: mm/
N: mm/
F: eklesia/
L:  hh/
F: ah? eklesia/
L: mm/
F: ku Musonoi/ eh: hapana Musonoi: Kolwezi muzima kule/
L: hh/
F: na wee mulisema mulikuwa na contactes na bo:
L: mm/
F: ku: kuonana nabo etcetera/
L: mm/
F: bon/ tena minajua: ile wakati: ilikuwa magumu/ kule ku Kolwezi/
L: mm/
F: inafaa kunielezea kiloko kiloko/ maneno zamani: [pauses] nilikuwa: kufunda: surtout ku Musonoi kwa Baba Pierre na Mama Thérèse:
L: mm/
F: na bale baKapongo Ignace:
L: mm/
F: Mujaji Laurent:
N: Mujaji ah/
F: bale banani/
L: hh/
F: tena: mu ngambo ingine vivile vilevile ku Mama Monique: Kabole/
L: mm/
F: yee alikuwa tu mukubwa tu:
L: mm/
F: ya kufundisha/
K: ...?...
F: ah? ya kufundisha/ naa: na Mukendi:
N: ah oui/
F: François/
N: ah oui/
F: bon: nilisikia kama bo: ile wakati: balipima ku: eh: nani: kupata rec: eh: kupata nani: ya: ruhusa ya wa état: ku: kwanza na ile église ya: yabo eh?
L: hh/
F: ...?... we: wee unajua ile mambo ya Mukendi? François/
K: ndiyo/
L: Mukendi François?
L with K and N: [conferring] ...?...
N: [overlapping] maneno na Kinshasa na baKazadi/
L: ndiyo/ ule: Mukendi François nilipata habari tu kama: ba wakati balianza ingeza kufanya église:
F: mm/
L: eh? balimutuma yeye Kinshasa:
F: mm/
L: kiisha alirudia lakini alikulya Makuta yote eh? nazani/
N: mm/
F: c’est ça/
All: ...?.... [confirmimg]
L: ile tulipata habari/
F: eeh/
L: ahah/ [claps] ni vile/
F: ...?...
L: sababu kwa kuiyuana na bo: kwa sababu bizazi: ni binayuana hivi/ kama hapa huku Felix ...?...eh? Muteba/
F: mm/
L: ni: ni yeye na bababa Valentin/ na Baba Emile Sokee: na bababa Urbain: yeye ni muzazi/
F: mm/
L: wa bale bababa Pierre...?...yee...?...tena mukuu wetu/
F: mm/
L: sasa bale waba: kule kuko Valentin Ngoyi: iko mu Lwilu:
F: mm/
L: kile kizazi ilizalikwa moya/ ni kule tuliyuana/
F: aah oui/
N: mm/
L: ni vile/
F: oui/
L: bon: tena: kule bo banazaa kizazi kingine iko pale: Kabongo/ Baba Mukena/
F: mm/
L: sasa si tuko tunatembelea kule/ sasa tunayuana/ hata bo kwa kupata habari bo ka: ya kanisa zaidi: baliipata ku njia ya: Haut Lomami/
F: ya?
L: ya ku Haut Lomami: ya Kamina/
F: ah oui/
N: Kamina/
F: aah/
L: kwa sababu balianza [with emphasis] kufungwa kabisa/
F: mm/
L: na kuingiza mu prison/
F: ku Kamina?
L: ah Kamina/
N: [overlapping] mm/
L: balifungwa magroupes: kila mikini balifungwa banapelekwa/
F: mu Kamina?
L: eeh/
F: banafika?
L: eeh/
F: si njo fasi ya: ya: ya Monseigneur Malunga?
L and K: ndiyo/
L: banakuwa nafungwa sana kule/ Malunga iko sawa: Malu: Malunga alikuwa ah basi: alikuwa contre/
N: donc: ile sous-région yote balipata...
F: ... alikuwa contre?
N: eeh/
L: ile sous-région tulipata magumu sana/ sasa bo kiisha kupata magumu: njo banapata habari huku/ Kalemie: kama: kuko munene moya inatokea kabisa kama tunapata ba: barua/ ya kwanza barua ilitoka ?Ilesi/ ni pale sasa: njo tunaungana habari/ bo nibaleta sasa bale ku Kolwezi/
F: mm/
L: sasa minafika mu Kolwezi mu quatre-vingt-deux/
F: quatre-vingt-deux/
L: ah njo minafika Kolwezi/
F: mm/
L: njo congrès yangu ya kwanza: ni mu quatre-vingt-deux/
F: eyo/
L: na njo si bananiprésenter mbele ya bantu...
F: ...ile: ile: minashangaa/ juu ya Malunga/ maneno: si tulikuwa: tuliona kama Malunga: hata zamani: ku: kila mara ilikuwa matata juu ya Jamaa kwa waaskofu: Malunga ali: alikuwa tu: kuchunga Jamaa/ ni yee alikuwa:
L: ndiyo/
F: sasa aliegeuka ao?
L: bali: ni kusema hata ule Monseigneur: Mulolwa: japo alikuwa natufwata: njo kusema kama tupatane: si sababu yake peke tu hapana/ kwa sababu kulikuwa magumu kati ya wazungu na wao/
F: mm/
L: hata Malunga alipata magumu ile ngambo ya wazungu tu/
F: mm/
L: tunaona vile/
F: mm/
L: sababu Monseigneur nyuma alitambua kama: alikosa/ kufanya déclination/ pa kusema ?rudishe tena mawazo: ilionaka kama conflit izidi tena: ku mwisho: baz: bapères balimufikia bote mara moya asema: asema: turudia sasa ulaya/ kama unataka kurudisha waJamistes/
F: ahah/
L: eeh/ na siku kiloko anapata kifwa: anakufa/
F: nani huyu?
L: Monseigneur/
F: Mu: Ma...
N: ...Mulolwa/
F: [overlapping] Mulolwa/ Mulolwa/
L: ts/ ilikuwa vile/
F: ah: ah: ah/
L: mm/ [pause]
N: hii mapressions hata: hata hapa/ bon/ Monseigneur Kabanga: yeye alikuagir kabisa pale/
L: mm/
N: ...?...alikuwa agir kwa nani: kama ni....
L: ...Père Paul/
N: ah oui/
K: Père Paul: na nani? na...
F: ile Gilardeau kule?
N: je crois oui/ ni Gi...
K: ...?...
F: ule: ule Gilardeau?
All: mm/
L: Père Paul:
F: ule na: na tukukuku ile/
K: aah/
N: ...?... na tukutuku/
K: Père Paul ya missionaires na nani? Kopens/
N: ah? eh: Keuppens/ mu Kolwezi...?...
L: Keuppens Kolwezi/
F: Kowes?
All: Kopens...?....
F: Kopens/
K: Kopens yee archévèque: si Kowens: njo Père Paul/
L: mm/
 

12. Well, we talked about about the time when a start was made....
L: Mm.
N: Mm.
F: ...with a church.
L: Yes.
F: Right? A church.
L: Mm.
F: In Musonoi. Well, not (just) in Musonoi but everywhere in Kolwezi.
L: Yes.
F: You said that you were in contact with them.
L: Mm.
F: Seeing each other, and so on.
L: Mm.
F: Alright. I also know that there were problems at the time in Kolwezi.
L: Mm.
F: You should tell me a few things about that. Because in those days [pauses] I was doing my research mainly in Musonoi, with Baba Pierre and Mama Thérèse.
L: Mm.
F: And with others like Baba Kapongo Ignace.
L: Mm.
F: Mujaji Laurent.
N: Mujaji, ah.
F: And others, whoever they were.
L: Yes.
F: On the other side (of town), I did the same with (the help of) Mama Monique Kabole.
L: Mm.
F: She was quite prominent.
L: Mm.
F: Because of her teaching.
K: ...?...
F: Right? For her teaching, together with Mukendi.
N: Ah, yes.
F: François.[32]
N: Ah, yes.
F: Alright. What I heard was that, in those days,[33] they tried to get permission from the State to start their church, right?
L: Yes.
F: ...?... do you know of the affair (around) Mukendi François?
K: Yes.
L: Mukendi François?
L with K and N: [conferring] ...?...
N: [overlapping] Things that happened in Kinshasa, with Kazadi.
L: Yes. I had heard about this Mukendi François at the time when they took steps to found a church.
F: Mm.
L: Right? They sent him to Kinshasa.
F: Mm.
L: I think when he came back he had spent[34] all the money, right?
N: Mm.
F: That’s what happened.
All: ...?... [confirming]
L: That was the news we had.
F: Yes.
L: Yes. [claps] That was (what happened).
F: ...?...
L: About knowing each other – this was because we belonged to (the same spiritual) lineages.[35] For instance, take Felix...?...here, right? Muteba.
F: Mm.
L: He is descended from Baba Valentin, and Baba Emile Sokee from Baba Urbain who is the one who gave birth to him.
F: Mm.
L: And people like Baba Pierre, ...?... he is our older brother.
F: Mm.
L: Then there are the descendants of Valentin Ngoyi, from Lwilu.
F: Mm.
L: It was through that lineage there that we knew each other.
F: Ah, yes.
N: Mm.
L: That’s how it is.
F: Yes.
L: Alright. Then there is this other line of descent that originated in Kabongo, (with) Baba Mukena.
F: Mm.
L: Since we traveled there we now know each other.  They had news about a church (being founded) from Haut Lomami.
F: From?
L: From Haut Lomami, from Kamina.[36]
F: Ah yes.
N: Kamina.
F: I see.
L: What happened was that they were [with emphasis] rounded up....
F: Mm.
L: ...and put into prison.
F: In Kamina?
L: Yes, Kamina.
N: [overlapping] Mm.
L: In all the localities groups were locked up and carried off.
F: In Kamina?
L: Yes
F: They came (for them)?
L: Yes.
F: Isn’t that the place of Monseigneur Malunga? [37]
L and K: Yes.
L: Many were locked up there. With Malunga it was like that – well, Malunga was against (us).[38]
N: Everywhere in that sous-région the6 had...
F:...he was against it?
N: Yes.
L: In that sous-région we had a lot of problems. When they had their troubles they got the news here in Kalemie. When the crisis reached its peak we got a letter. First, the letter came from ...?... That was when we shared the news which I then brought to the Jamaa in Kolwezi.
F: Mm.
L: I got to Kolwezi in ’82.
F: In ’82.
L: Yes, that’s when I got to Kolwezi
F: Mm.
L: That was my first meeting I attended, in ’82.
F: I see.
L: And the one where I was presented to the assembly...
F: ...I have a hard time to believe (lit. I am surprised) (what you are telling me) about Malunga because what we observed was that Malunga, even in those days, used to be the one who protected the Jamaa whenever it was in trouble with the bishops.
L: Yes.
F: Had he changed, or what was it?
L: (It was like) with Monseigneur Mulolwa who used to be our supporter. He alone was not responsible for what happened to us. There were conflicts between the Whites and him.[39]
F: Mm.
L: Malunga also had problems from that corner, the Whites.
F: Mm.
L: That’s how we see it.
F: Mm.
L: Because Monseigneur (Mulolwa) later realized that he made a mistake when he issued his refusal.[40] When he said we should come back with an(other) idea (lit. return the thoughts) it turned out that the conflict got worse and in the end all the missionaries went to see him saying, we are going back to Europe now if you want to take the Jamaa people back.
F: I see.
L: Yes. And a few days later he had chest trouble and died.
F: Who was this?
L: Monseigneur.
F: Mu, Ma....
N: ...Mulolwa.
F: [overlapping] Mulolwa. Mulolwa.
L: Well, that’s how it was.
F: Ah (what a pity).
L: Mm. [pause]
N: Even here (in Lubumbashi) we had these harassments. To tell the truth, it was above all Monseigneur Kabanga who was behind it.
L: Mm.
N: ...?... he operated through -- what’s his name...
L: ... Father Paul.
N: Ah, yes.
K: Père Paul and -- who was the other one?
F: This (Father) Gilardeau?
N: I believe so, it was Gi...
K: ...?..
F: This Gilardeau?
All: Mm.
L: Father Paul.
F: The one with his motorbike.
K: Yes.
N: With his motorbike.
K: Father Paul, of the missionaries of – what was his order? (The one) Kopens (belonged to).
N: Who? Yes, Keuppens, in Kolwezi...?...
L: Keuppens in Kolwezi.
F: Kowes?
All: Kopens...?...
F: Kopens.
K: Kopens, not Kowens, he was archbishop. So much about Father Paul.
L: Mm.[41]
 

13. F: bon/ [pause] sasa: ku: ngambo ya: ya légalité/ mi najua: tuko mu Zaire tuko na: na lois: moya: donc:
N: mm/
F: inasema kwa: kupata ruhusa ya état: mbele: munapashwa kulipa cent mille Zaire/
N: cent mille Zaire/
K: mm/
F: hapa sasa ni cent mille Zaire ao ilipanda?
L: ingali/
N: ...?... ni cent mille Zaire...
F: [overlapping] ingali/
K: eheh/
N: ...beko naweza kupandikia: kuipandisha/
F: [overlapping]...ile: ile wakati ile ilikuwa mingi sana/
N: mm/
L: cent mille Zaire ilikuwa mingi/
N: ilikuwa mingi sana/
F: sasa mulipata: mwee mulipata ile: ile: ile cent mille Zaire?
L: ndiyo/
N: [overlapping] ...?...
L: hii cent mille Zaire tulifanya wakati tunafanya macongrès: tuliungana bahuku na bahuku: tuliweza kupatana kila sous-région bakatosha nusu tu gani: cent mille Zaire/
F: ahah/
L: ah/ Kolwezi alitosha...
F: ...mu: mu waka gani ule?
L: mu quatre-vingt-deux/
F: quatre-vingt-deux paka?
L: mm/ quatre-vingt-deux/
F: tus: eeh: ni kusema mulipata: mulidéposer:
L: ku: kukote/
N: [overlapping] mm/ kukote/
F: kukote:
L: Kalemie/
F: eeh/
L: aah/
F: ah ni vile: inafaa ku:
N: eeh/
F: kuweza kuonyesha compte?
K and L: ...?...
N: kuwaonyesha compte/
F: ah/
N: aah/
L: njo kiisha kuonyesha compte: ni pale sasa tulipata: attestation provisoire/ sababu ku lois inasema: kama muntu ananea cent mille Zaire iko na ruhusa ya kufanya exercise...
F: mm/
N: ...ya culte/
L: [claps ya comme ça allez/
F: oui oui/
L: ni ile sasa tulipata njia ya kuanza kusali na leo/
F: eheh/
L: aah/  na ni ile ?inaponyesha kabisa na leo/
F: mm/
L: kwa sababu ile makanisa mingi bana: bana: beko nafunga cent soixante-cinq: haiyatimilize cent mille Zaire/ ile maconditions ya organisation na bamembres effectifs na bitu mbali mbali/
F: mm/
L: sasa si tulitimilaza byote hatuna ...?...rétard hapana/
F: ahah/
L: ni sisi l’état iko na deni ya kusigner ...?... civil tu/
F: oh: nini ni?
L: l’état/
N: eheh/
F: oui/
N: ...?...
F: haba: habakusigner bado?
L: ah: bado/
N: ....?.... lakini maconditions yote:
L: iliisha/
N: ilikuwa réalisées/
L: aah/
N: eh oui/
K: ...?...
F: turudie ku ma: ma conditions/ ka: maconditions donc/ ile: ile somme ya:
N: ...cent mille Zaire
L: cent mille Zaire/ liste ya membres effectifs: casier judiciaire: régulation de sources: doctrine: eh...
F: ....?....?
L: re: regulation de sources/
N: tu déclaration de resources/
L: de ressources/
F: de ressources oui/
L: aah/
N: ...?....
L: [overlapping] réglement ordre intérieur:
F: d’ordre intérieur:
L: ahah/
N: statuts/
L: na statuts/
F: na kwa liste ya bamembres banaomba majina majina?
L: majina kila....?.../
N: [overlapping]...adresses yabo/
F: mm/
L: mm/
 

13. F: Alright. [pause] Now, as far as the legal situation is concerned, I know that we have in Zaire a law.
N: Mm.
F: Which says that, to get permission from the government, you first have to pay one hundred thousand Zaire.
N: Hundred thousand Zaire.
K: Mm.
F: Is it hundred thousand Zaire right now, or did it go up?
L: It still is.
N: ...?... it’s hundred thousand Zaire...
F: [overlapping] It still is.
K: Yes.
N: ...(though) the may increase the amount.
F: ...in those days that was a whole lot money.
N: Mm.
L: Hundred thousand Zaire was a lot.
F: But you got those hndred thousand Zaire together?
L: Yes.
N: [overlapping] ...?..
L: We raised the hundred thousand Zaire during the time we had the meetings. We got people together from here and there, reaching every sous-région and they came up with a par of the one hundred thousand Zaire.
F: I see.
L: Kolwezi came up with....
F: ...what year was that?
L: In ‘82.
F: In ’82, as recently as that?
L: Mm, ’82.
F: In other words, what you received you deposited...
L: ...everywhere.
N: [overlapping] Mm, everywhere.
F: Everywhere.
L: In Kalemie (for instance).
F: I see.
L: Yes.
F: Ah, that’s how it was. What was needed ...
N: Yes.
F: ...was that you could show a bank account?
K and L: ...?....
N: Show them a bank account.
L: Once we had shown the account we got a provisional certificate. Because in the law it says that someone who can come up with a hundred thousand Zaire is allowed to practice...
F: Mm.
N: ...a cult.
L: [claps]. Just like that.
F: Yes, yes.
L: With that we found a way to come together for prayer up to this day.
F: I see.
L: Yes, and that has been good for us up to this day.
F: Mm.
L: Because they closed 165 of the many churches which had not come up with hundred thousand Zaire or failed to meet the (other) conditions, like having organized an actual membership and various others.
F: Mm.
L: Whereas we met all (the conditions) without delay.
F: I see.
L: What he government still owes us is to sign the act of incorporation.
F: Oh, what is that?
L: The government.
N: Yes.
F: Yes.
N: ...?...
F: That wasn’t signed yet?
L: Well, not yet.
N: .... however, all the conditions...
L: ...were fulfilled.
N: ...were fulfilled.
L: Yes.
N: Yes.
K: ...?...
F: Let’s go back to the conditions. So, there was this sum of ....
N: ... hundred thousand Zaire.
L: Hundred thousand Zaire, a list of actual members, the police record, a declaration of income[42], (a statement of) doctrine, eh....
F: ...?... (What)?
L: Declaration of income.
N: A declaration of income and assets.
L: Of assets.
F: Of assets, yes.
L: Right.
N: ...?...
L: [overlapping] The by-laws.
F: By-laws.
L: Yes.
N: Statutes.
L: And statutes.
F: And on the list of members, did they ask for their names?
L: Names, (for) every (member)...
N: [overlapping] ... their addresses.
F: Mm.
L: Mm.
 

14. F: sasa: kumbe uli: mulipashwa kufanya récensement: muko na liste/
L: ndiyo/ tulifanya récensement/
N: [overlapping] ndiyo/
F: sasa: munaona: [pauses] minajua ile ni toujours à peu près eh?
L: mm/
F: kama bengine banafika: bengine banaenda:
L: mm/
F: mais: sasa: kwa sasa: una: waza muko ngapi sasa?
L: récensement ya mu mille neuf cent quatre-vingt-trois: tulikuwa vingt-neuf mille huit cent: quatre-vingt: eh: nonante-et-un/
F: vingt-neuf mille?
L: ahah/
N: mm/ huit cent nonante-et-un/ donc huit cent nonante-et-un/
L: sasa tuko quarante mille/
F: quarante mille?
L: ahah/ sasa/
F: na muko na quarante mille: ma: jina?
L: mu ?waumini/
F: malistes:
L: malistes eeh tuna...
N: ...eeh tuna: bale nani...?..
L: ba ku ?maya
N: ...?... wa membres listes ilikuwa vingt-sept/
L: na membres ...?... vingt-sept/
N: eheh: eheh/ ni bale ni....
L: ba ?de rang/ ba ?umini/
F: mm/
L: tuko naongezeka sana/
F: mm/
N: mm/
F: ni ba: nini: ni batoto vile vile?
L: na batoto:
F: oui/
L: eeh/
F: donc: quarante...
L: ...quarante mille/
N: quarante mille/
L: njo récensement ya humu hapa: ni kidoko watafanya hata sasa/
F: aah/
L: sawa tuko napokea récensement ya kila station/
F: mm/
L: ...?... tuko na stations kumi na tatu/
F: kumi na tatu?
L: kumi na tatu: stations/ na kila station kuko na grand pasteur/ bon/ mu Kabinda tuko na stations kumi na inne/ kila station kuko na grand pasteur/
F: oui/
L: bon/ Kalemie tuko na stations: Nyunzu: Kalemie: Moba: Kongolo/
N: na Nkolo/
L: na Nkolo/ tuko na stations tano/
F: tano/
L: mu ...?...ya kule/
F: eeh/
L: Uvira tuko na station moya/
F: Uvira?
L: eheh/ ni sous-région Maniema/
N: [overlapping] ni sous ...?.../
L: station moya/
N: [overlapping] ...?...
F: mm/
L: na ile moya ilikuwa kule ku...?...le journal: njo stations: eh: tuko na stations inne/ Kasongo: Malela: et pale Kibangula: pamoya na kule Uvira/ stations inne/
F: mm/
L: na humu: paka na station moya na sections tatu/
F: hapa mu:
L: mu Lubumbashi/
F: Lubumbashi/
L: eeh/
F: tena mu:
N: fasi/
F: mu Shaba?
N: ...?...
L: njo mu Shaba/
F: oui/ oui mais: mu Lika: mu: mu migini ingine ya Shaba?
L: mugini ya Sh: Likasi: kuko na station moya/
F: mm/
L: na section: moya/
F: moya/
N: sections mbili/
L: na sections mbili/
N: ...?... na ...?.../
L: eheh/
N: hapa sasa banaanza kwenda kiloko nani: ku: Luambo:
L: eh/
N: banazua kiloko/ na ngambo ya Shituru/
L: eheh/
N: zua kiloko/
F: mm/
L: bon/ Sandoa tuko tuko na station: eh: sita/
F: sita?
L: eeh/ Sandoa/
N: mu sous-région Lualaba/
L: ya Lualaba/
F: sita?
L: aah/
N: sita: oui/ six stations/
F: na sections?
L: na sections vile vile/
F: vile vile?
L: aah/
F: ni nani kule ku Sandoa?
L: Nguza/
N: ...?... Nguza Ilunga/
L: Nguza Ilunga/
F: nakumbuka ule Baba: Nicodème/ alikuwa ku: ah: Sandoa/ Nicodème/
K: nani: eeh: mm: ts/
F: tuliandika article moya juu/
L: mm/
K: Nicodème:
F: Nicodème: Kapenda?
K: Kapenda/
L: Kapenda Nicodème/
K: Kapenda: alikufa njo mi nalipenser...
L: ... eeh/ njo kiisha Nguza anakuwa pale pake/
F: voilà/
Other: [overlapping]...?...Kapenda/
F: niko naona mu kichwa yangu/
L: eeh/
F: eh: Kolwezi?
L: Kolwezi kuko:
N: Kolwezi ni station moya:
L: ni station moya: iko na section saba/
N: [overlapping] ...?...kenda/
L: ki kenda/
F: kenda?
L: aah/
F: mu: Musonoi:
N: eh kuko saba:
L: mm/
N: ya Gécamines:
L: hh/
N: na...
F: mu makompund yote?
L: makompund yote/
N: makompund yote/
L: ahah/
N: na mu Manika:
L: Manika:
N: na Lualaba/
K: na Lualaba/
L: na Lualaba
F: Manika ni mu centre ville?
L: mm/
N: eeh/ ...?... njo à côté ya ville/ mu centre ville bo...
K: ku Mama Kabole M: Monique/
F: [overlapping] na masections: sawa: à la moyenne/ batakuwa: bataweza kuwa na: na: na...
L: ...sections...
F: na ngapi? na:
L: iko na chapelles/
F: oui oui/
N: ...?...
F: sectio: section iko na chapelles?
L: iko na chapelles/
N: mm/
L: section moya anaweza kuwa na machapelles tano: section ingine beko na chapelles munane/
N: mm/
L: sasa stations:
F: oui/
L: iko na masections ya kufika karibu: kumi/
F: mm/
N: eh/ norme ya étendue ya section:
F: mm/
N: iko sawa vile iko: humu iko mu sous-région urbaine: ni zone/
L: aah/
F: mm/
N: zone moya ni section moya/
F: oui/
N: ...?...côté là par exemple côté ya Kolwezi: bon: cité moya ya Gécamines: ni section/
L: mm/
N: ehm/ bon/ sawa vile zone ya Manika: ile ni section à part/
F: mm/
N: njo iko vile/
F: mm/
L: mm/
F: na mu nkundi moya sawa vile:
N: mm/
F: ni: ni:...
N: ...wa...
F: makumi tatu: ao makumi?
N: makumi tatu:
L: kuko masections ingine: ni bantu mingi/
N: [overlapping] ...?...
F: mingi/ oui/
N: hapana/ ku Kolwezi: Kolwezi wanapita: beko mingi/
F: mm/
L: kama vile Musonoi:
N: eko ...?... six cent personnes/
L: six cent personnes/
F: à Musonoi?
L: aah/ sababu: pale: beko deux mille: beko deux mille ...?...mu quatre-vingt-trois balikuwa deux mille quatre-cent: trente-et-un/
F: ahah/
N: Kolwezi/
L: Kolwezi yote muzima/
F: oui/
L: lakini tu ...?... wanaozeka/
N: wanakuwa mingi kabisa/
L: eheh/
F: mingi/
L: eheh/
F: surtout: banani: ba: ba: bajeunes?
K: bajeunes/
L: bajeunes eh: mingi sasa/
K: oui/ iko mingi/
L: sana/ sababu kama: mwaka jana balikuwa: deux mille sept cent/ sasa beko trois mille quatre-cent-septante/ [claps] mu zone ya Bukama/ Malemba ?à part/
F: oui/
N: kama Malemba kule ni njo...
L: na Malemba sasa njo wanaongezeka zaidi/
F: Malemba: Malemba Nkulu kule?
L: Malemba Nkulu/
N: [overlapping] Nkulu/
L: eeh/ wengi sana/ walik...?...
N: ...njo: iko inaikala hatari kabisa/
L: kulikuwa quatre mille quatre-cent-dix/ lakini sasa...
F: hatari ni namna gani/
N: mm/
L: ku watu...
N: bantu wamingi banakuwa mingi:
F: ah oui/
N: ...?... comme églises ingine inaanza kufunga/
L: inabomoka: ya kiProtestant inatoka et Katolika banakwenda: njo magumu tuko napata ile/
N: mm/
L: pale Père anakwenda fasi moya anakutana bantu yote: banaamba anasema si tunakuwa baJamistes/
F: mm/
L: eheh/ sasa nilianza mambo ya komunio:
N: [overlapping]...?... [pause]
 

14. So, then you had to do a count (and) you have a list.
L: Yes. We did a count.
N: [overlapping] Yes.
F: So you see [pauses] – I know that such a count is always approximate, right?
L: Mm.
F: Some join, others leave.
L: Mm.
F: But, right now, how many do you think you are?
L: According to the count of 1983 we were at 29891.
F: 29000?
L: Yes.
N: Mm. And 891.
L: Now we (have reached) 40000.
F: 40000?
L: Yes, right now.
F: And you have 40000 names down?
L: On the ...?...
F: The lists.
L: The lists, yes. We...
N: ... yes, we have those...?...
L: ...?...
N: ...?... of members. There were twenty-seven lists.
L: Twenty-seven lists of members.
N: Yes. They were...
L: ...?...[43]
F: Mm.
L: We really have been growing.
F: Mm.
N: Mm.
F: Does this include young people?
L: It does.
F: Yes.
L: Yes.
F: So, (to repeat) forty...
L: Forty thousand.
N: Forty thousand.
L: There is a count of members going to be made very soon right here (in Lubumbashi).
F: I see.
L: (The way it works) we get the count from every station.
F: Mm.
L: ...?... we have thirteen stations.
F: Thirteen?
L: Thirteen. And every station has its grand pasteur. Alright. In Kabinda we have fourteen stations. Every station has a grand pasteur.
F: Yes.
L: Alright. (Coming to the region of) Kalemie[44] we have stations in Nyunzu, Kalemie, Moba, Kongolo.
N: And Nkolo.
L: And Nkolo. Five stations (altogether in that region).
F: Five.
L: In that region.
F: I see.
L: At Uvira we have one station.
F: Uvira?
L: Yes, that is in the sous-région Maniema.
N: [overlapping] In the sous (-région)...?...
L: One station.
N: [overlapping] ...?...
F: Mm.
L: And there is this one that was the ...?.... [45] which makes four stations: Kasongo, Malela, Kibangule, together with Uvira there, four stations.
F: Mm.
L: And here we have just one station with three sections.
F: Here in...
L: In Lubumbashi.
F: Lubumbashi.
L: Yes.
F: Furthermore, in...
N: (Other) places.
F: In Shaba?
N: ...?..
L: (Lubumbashi) is in Shaba.
F: Yes, but what about Lika(si) and in other towns in Shaba?
L: A town in Sh(aba) – Likasi, there is one station.
F: Mm.
L: And one section.
F: One.
N: Two sections.
L: And two sections.
N: ...?...
L: Yes.
N: Right now they are starting (with a small group) in Luambo.
L: Yes.
N: They are starting (with a small group), also at Shituru.
L: Yes.
N: (Just) starting off.
F: Mm.
L: Alright. At Sandoa we have six sections.
F: Six?
L: Yes, at Sandoa.
N: In the sous-région Lualaba.
F: Six?
L: Yes.
N: Six, yes. Six stations.
F: With sections?
L: Also with sections.
F: Also?
L: Yes.
F: Who (is the leader) there in Sandoa?
L: Nguza.
N: ...?... Nguza Ilunga.
L: Nguza Ilunga/
F: I remember this Baba Nicodème. He was at Sandoa, Nicodème.
K: What was (his second name) – I can’t remember right now.
F: I wrote a paper (in which he figured). [46]
L: Mm.
K: Nicodème.
F: Nicodème, (was it) Kapenda?
K: Kapenda.
L: Kapenda Nicodème.
K: Kapenda. I thought he died...
L: ...yes. After that it was Nguza.
F: There you are.
F: I still see him in my head.
L: Yes.
F: Then – what about Kolwezi?
L: In Kolwezi there is...
N: ...Kolwezi is one station.
L: It is one station with seven sections.
N: [overlapping]...?...nine.
L: Nine.
F: Nine?
L: Yes.
F: In Musonoi.
N: Yes, there are seven.
L: Mm.
N: (In the settlements of the) Gécamines.
L: Yes.
N: And...
F: In all the settlements?
L: All the settlements,
N: All the settlements.
L: Yes.
N: And in Manika.
L: Manika.
N: And in Lualaba.
K: And Lualaba.
L: And Lualaba.
F: Manika, that’s in the center of town?
L: Mm.
N: Yes. ...?... it is alongside the town.[47] In the center of town they....
K: Where Mama Kabole Monique[48] (lives).
F: [overlapping] And the sections, on the average, would have....
L: ...Sections...
F: ... how many (members)?
L: (Sections) have chapels.
F: Yes, yes.
N: ...?...
F: A section has (several) chapels?
L: It has chapels.
N: Mm.
L: A section may have five chapels, in another one they have eight chapels.
N: Mm.
L: As to sections.
F: Yes.
L: There are sections that have up to ten (chapels).
F: Mm.
N: Well, the norm for the extent of a section...
F: Mm.
N: ...corresponds to that of a zone here in the urban sous-région.
L: Yes.
F: Mm.
N: One zone equals one section.
F: Yes.
N: ...?... around Kolwezi, for example, one Gécamines settlement is a section.
L: Mm.
N: Yes. Alright. The zone Manika is a separate section.
F: Mm.
N: That’s how it is.
F: Mm.
L: Mm.
F: And in a group like that...
N: Mm.
F: ...there are...
N: ...?...
F: ...about thirty (members) or so?
N: Thirty.
L: There are some sections that don’t[49] have many members.
N: [overlapping] ...?...
F: (Not so) many, yes.
N: No. In Kolwezi they do better, there are many (members).
F: Mm.
L: For instance, in Musonoi.
N: (Membership) is at six hundred persons.
L: Six hundred persons.
F: In Musonoi?
L: Yes. Because there they have two thousand members. In 1983 the count was two thousand four hundred and thirty-one.
F: I see.
N: In Kolwezi.
L: In Kolwezi as a whole.
F: Yes.
L: However, they are growing.[50]
N: They are really many.
L: Yes.
F: Many (of them).
L: Yes.
F: Especially young people?
K: Young people.
L: Young people, yes. There are now many of them.
K: Yes, there are many. 
L: Lots of them. Because if last year they were at 2100 they are now at 3470 in zone Bukama, not counting Malemba.
F: Yes.
N: As to Malemba, there...
N: In Malemba they are now growing rapidly.
F: Malemba, that’s Malemba Nkulu?
L: Malemba Nkulu.
N: [overlapping] Nkulu.
L: Yes. Lots of them came...
N: ...which poses a serious danger.
L: (Membership) was up to 4410. But now...
F: A danger, in what sense?
N: Mm.
L: Among the people...
N: There are lots of people, they are (too) many.
F: Ah, yes.
N: ... (who joined us) as other churches began to shut down.
L: It’s a mess –with Protestantism coming up and Catholics leaving, that’s the trouble we have been having.
N: Mm.
L: Whenever a priest goes somewhere and meets with people they all tell him, we are Jamists.
F: Mm.
L: Yes. Now, if I were to begin about the matter of communion...[51]
N: [overlapping] ...?... [pause]
 

15. F: unabaona baj: bajeunes/ ba sasa/ banaba: banafika ku Jamaa/ bo: banaona Jamaa na: namna gani? pa: nikueleze mbele: maana ya ulizo yangu/
L: mm/
F: bon/ zamani: surtout Jamaa: ilikuwa mambo ya bababa na bamama mwenye kukomea:
L: mm/
F: tena: balikuwa bantu wa kazi/ typiquement balikuwa bantu wa Gécamines/
L: mm/
F: wa Union Minière/
L: mm/
F: eh? donc: sikukuwa: ya kusema ni batoto wanafwata Jamaa: non/ ça: ça n’existait pas/
L: mm/
F: bon/ sasa: minaona: ça a changé/ kumbe: ulizo/ [claps] mbele minawaza [claps]: enfin: enfin: niseme namna gani? [pauses] napima kusikia: kijana fulani fulani: eko mu: mu ville ao mu mugini kule: sasa anakuta Jamaa namna gani? mara ya mwa: ya: ya kwanza: anasikia nini? ana: eh? anabaona namna gani? asema ni beko Protestants:
N: mm/
F: maéglises:...?... eh? unasikia ulizo yangu?
N: ndiyo...
L: tuko nasikia/
N: eh/
F: mm/
L: kama: bale batoto banaona: bale ba: banasema ni baProtestant eh?
F: mm/
L: si vile/
N: ...?... bengine asema ni waProtestant/
K: mm/
N: bengine wanakuya sahabu: bale baCatholique/
K: mm/ unaona?
L: si vile/
N: sasa wao: kama anafika: eeh: saa ataingizwa mu kule ...?...njo anaona asema bon: habana ku Protestant: habana Catholique/
F: mm/
N: beko ya une église à part/
F: mm/
N: eheh/ donc: de l’extérieur: wanasema oh bale baProtestant/ si iko baCatholique wanasema oh waJamaa ni Protestant/ ku baProtestant banasema: baJamaa ni baCatholique/
F: njo vile/
L: mm/
N: bon/ sasa: lakini wakati ataingizwa mu Jamaa mwenyewe: ...?... anaona asema kumbe: hatuna ku Protestant: hatuna Catholique/
L: mm/
N: tuko na ...?... spécial/
F: oui/
N: eeh/
F: na....
N: ...?... bajeunes: banani: banasema: beko na voie ingine: inakuwa iko intermédiaire/
F: mm/
N: eheh/
L: na kama sisi tulifanya: kwa sababu wakati tulianza magumu: watu wengi walirudia Catholique juu ya magumu/ ile kuogopa kupigwa: ka kuwawa/
F: mm/
L: watu walizana tutakufwa/ sasa: vijana waliona kama: ts: hii magumo inafaa tuibebe/ iko mara moya/
F: mm/
L: [claps] waliona kwao [claps] kama kitu kipya/
N: mm/
L: sasa si tulifanya miaka inne hatukufundisha baba hata moya/ tulikuwa nafundisha watoto tu/
F: mm/
L: na vile tuko nafanya/
F: mm/
L: miaka inne/
F: mm/
L: tunafanya tu morale kwa utoto/ tunawafundisha tu/
F: mm/
L: tangu: Jamaa ni nini? ni nkundi: musikilizano: musaidiano: na mapendano: paka ku umutu/
F: mm/
L: tunabakia na watoto pale/
F: mm/
L: sasa balisikia ile kama vile kitu kipya: alafu inbaletea ?mungale wa kweli/ njo pale balipata nguvo: na bote banazalikwa ku ule njia/
F: mm/
L: sababu tuko nabafundisha kabisa mafundisho ya Jamaa/ na hasa wakati mafundisho mawazo ya bumuntu: banasikia vizuri zaidi wazi wazi/ muntu ni nini? ni ni kule banaona:
F: mm/
L: vizuri zaidi/
F: mm/

15. F: You observe young people who now come to the Jamaa. How do they see the Jamaa? Maybe I should first explain the sense of my question.
L: Mm.
F: Alright. In the past, the Jamaa was above all something for men and women of a certain age.
L: Mm.
F: Furthermore, they were workers, typically, employed by Gécamines.
L: Mm.
F: By the Union Minière (as it was called then).
L: Mm.
F: Right? So, it was not the case that youngsters would follow the Jamaa. That did not exist.
L: Mm.
F: Fine. Now I observe that this has changed. Hence the question [claps] that occurred to me right away – how shall I put it [pauses] – I am trying to understand how does a young person, in town or in a village, come into contact with the Jamaa? When this first happens, what does he or she understand, how do (those young people) look at the members?  (Do the take them for) Protestants?
N: Mm.
F: Or one of the (many) churches? You understand my question?
N: Yes.
L: We understand.
N: Yes.
L: (Are you are suggesting) when young people look (at the Jamaa) they say they are Protestants?
F: Mm.
L: That’s not the case.
N: ...?...there may be some who say they are Protestants.
K: Mm.
N: Others come because they take them for Catholics.
K: Mm. You see?
L: That’s wrong (too).
N: What happens is that a person who comes (to join the Jamaa), once he or she has been introduced, realizes that they belong neither to Protestants nor are they Catholic.
F: Mm.
N: They are of a church apart.
F: Mm.
N: Yes. So, (viewed) from the outside one may say, oh, those people are Protestants. There are even Catholics who say, oh, the Jamaa is Protestant. Among Protestants they say the Jamaa is Catholic.
F: Right.
L: Mm.
N: Alright. However, once a person has been initiated in the Jamaa itself ...?... he or she will conclude that we are neither Protestant nor Catholic.
L: Mm.
N: We are something special.
F: Yes.
N: Yes.
F: And...
N: ...?... some young people say they are on a different road, somewhere between (Protestants and Catholics).
F: Mm.
N: Yes.
L: And we might have (taken that road) because, when our problems started, many went back to Catholicism. This was because they feared that they would be beaten up and suffer pain.
F: Mm.
L: People thought, we are going to die. That’s when the young took the view that we should endure the difficulties, they would not last.
F: Mm.
L: [claps] In their view [claps] this was something momentary.
N: Mm.
L: Now, for four years we have not been teaching[52] a single older person, we only taught young people.
F: Mm.
L: And that is what we have been doing.
F: Mm.
L: For four years.
F: Mm.
L: We exhort the youth, we teach them.
F: Mm.
L: Beginning with (with the question): What is Jamaa? It is a group based on mutual understanding, mutual help, and mutual love, (in sum) what it means to be human.
F: Mm.
L: We are with the young people there.
F: Mm.
L: They experienced this as something new but it gives them true ...?... It gave them strength and they were all reborn through initiation.[53]
F: Mm.
L: Because we really teach them the doctrine of the Jamaa. Above all, when it comes to the chapter on what it means to be human they have a deep understanding of this. What is a human being? That is where they get a grasp of it.
F: Mm.
L: The truly do.
F: Mm.
 

16. F: tuendelee eh kiloko kiloko tena: minaona ngambo inataka kuisha/ ehm: ni kusema ku: tulifanya tour de: de stations eh?
N: ile tulifanya/
F: donc: tulifika ngambo ya Malemba Nkulu:
N: mm/
F: Sandoa: Kapanga?
N: Kapanga...
L: ...Kapanga/
F: na: eh: Kamina:
L: mm/
F: vile mulisema muko na: na section:
L: eeh: iko mu Kamina/
F: na: [pauses] hapa ngambo: Kafwakumba:
K: iko/
N: Kafwakumba/
F: Kafwakumba vile vile?
All: ...?...
F: Kabondo Dianda?
L: Kabondo Dianda iko/ kuko inakalaka  passé par Kabondo Dianda/
F: c’est vrais?
L: ahah/
F: acha ni: eh: pindule mbele/
[recording interrupted]
L: [names places] ...?... pa mayi/
F: Luena?
L: Luena/
N: Luena ndiyo/
L: ahah/ et beko baMbui Charles/
N: beko na Mbuyi Charles/
L: eheh/
F: Mbuyi Charles?
L: ahah/
N: ndiyo/
F: ku Luena kule?
N: ni ku Luena/
K: ule: kanisa yake ni Musonoi/
L: Musonoi/
F: mm/
L: ule mzee ni...
F: oui oui/ oui oui/
L: na ile fasi beko nazalia bale/
F: eheh/
L: ahah/ Chaviya: Luvya: hii mu njia yote tu/
F: na Bunkeya vile vile?
K: hapana/
L: Bunkeya hapana/
N: [overlapping] ...bado/
L: Bunkeya bado/
F: bado/
L: eheh/
F: bado/
L: Bunkeya bado/
F: non/ na inje ya Shaba? ma: mu manani: régions ingine?
K: régions ingine/
L: na régions ingine: tulikuwa na nusu Burundi:
F: Burundi/
L: balishindwa kwa sababu ya ule réprésentant: hakuwa normal: ule mwenyee tuliweka/
F: ah ah/
L: sasa bale batu baliharibika: baliona kama huyu: hastahili:
F: mm/
L: bakaharibika/
F: mm/
L: sasa: huku: beko na Angola/ njo ku batu nusu:
N: mm/
L: hapa ku Angola/
N: mm/ hii ngambo/
F: ku Angola?
N: ...?...ku Angola na Te: mm: Texeira du S: Texeira du Souza/
L: ah/
F: oui/
L: de côté wa ...?...kidogo/
N: wa mu côté ya Zambie:  mu ville ya Chingola:
L: bekowako/
N: mm/
F: na mu Kasai?
N: na mu Kasai/
L: mu Kasai ni Mbuji Mayi/
N: Kasai yote ?yataa:
L: Kasai yote ?yataa/
N: iko bamingi/ na tena hapa sasa: bon...
F: uliisha kutembea kule ku Mbuji...
L: kule niliisha kwenda: ku Kasai huku ya Mbuji Mayi/
F: mm/
L: kiisha kwenda paka Kibwe: karibu na Kabinda/
F: mm/
L: kwenda kufanya cérémonie ya huyu superviseur/
F: ahah/
L: nilikwendaka kule/
F: kumu: ku  mu...
L: ...?...
F: muinstaller/
L: eheh/  kuko nazua na peuple ba: bantu mingi kabisa wa kufika ya Stan/ balifika pale/ wengi sana/ na tulipatiza pale si tulifika trois cent soixante/ mm/
F: ahah
L: ahah/
F: kule: kule ngambo/ donc: eh: Kasai/
L: mm/ Kasai/
F: tena: chini?
K: Maniema/
F: Maniema vile vile?
L: Maniema: Kasongo: Malela: paka vile/
F: Kisangani?
N: Kisangani/
L: Kisangani: bekowako hakuya muntu kabisa kwa kuweza kuwasimamia/
F: mm/
L: anapenda/
F: ku Equateur? Non.
L: ku Equateur bado/
F: bado/
L: hh/
F: ku nani: kule ku Bas Congo ku: ku: ku: eh: Kinshasa?
L: bado kule/
N: ...?...
L: bado eheh/
F: bado/
L: hh/
 

16. F: Let us go on a bit – I see that one side (of the cassette) is about to run out. Well. We have been making the tour of (Jamaa) stations, right?
N: We did that.
F: So, we got to the region of Malemba Nkulu.
N: Mm.
F: (And) Sandoa. (What about) Kapanga?
N: Kapanga...
L: ...Kapanga.
F: And Kamina.
L: Mm.
F: As you said, you have a station (there).
L: Yes, there is one in Kamina.
F: And [pauses] closer by, near Kafwakumba.
K: There is one.
N: Kafwakumba.
F: Kafwakumba also?
All: ...?...
F: Kabondo Dianda?
L: There is one in Kabondo Dianda and there are more past Kabondo Dianda.
F: Is that true?
L: Yes.
F: Wait a moment so I can turn (the cassette),
[recording interrupted]
L: ...[names places] ...?... near the river.[54]
F: Luena?
L: Luena.
N: Luena, yes.
L: Yes, they are are the people of Mbuyi Charles.
N: They have Mbuyi Charles (as their leader).
L: Yes.
N: Yes.
F: Mbuyi Charles?
L: Yes.
N: Yes.
F: There in Luena?
N: He is in Luena.
K: The church he comes from is Musonoi.
L: Musonoi.
F: Mm.
L: He is this old timer who....
F: Yes, yes. Yes, yes,
L: And that is where they initiate (lit. give birth, to new members).
F: I see.
L: Yes. (Also in) Chaviya, Luvya, all those places along the road.
F: And Bunkeya also?
L: Not in Bunkeya.
N: [overlapping]...not yet.
L: In Bunkeya not yet.
F: Not yet.
L: Yes.
L: In Bunkeya not yet.
F: No. And outside Shaba? In other regions?
K: (In) other regions.
L: As to other regions, we were (represented in) part of Burundi.
F: Burundi.
L: They were a failure because of this representative who wasn’t normal, the one we put there.
F: Ah, I see.
L: People there broke up when they realized that this man was worthless.
F: Mm.
L: That’s when they fell apart.
F: Mm.
L: Now, on this side, (the Jamaa) exists in Angola among people in (that) part.
N: Mm.
L: Close by in Angola.
N: Mm. On this side.
F: In Angola?
N: ...?...in Angola, in, mm, Texeira de S: Texeira de Sousa.
L: Yes.
F: Yes.
L: Around...?... a little.
N: On the Zambian side, in the town of Chingola.
L: They are there.
N: Mm.
F: And in the Kasai?
L: In the Kasai, in Mbuyi Mayi...
N: In the Kasai everywhere.
L: Everywhere in the Kasai.
N: There are lots of them. Furthermore, right now...
F: Have you traveled there to Mbuji...
L: I went to the Kasai, to Mbuji Mayi.
F: Mm.
L: Then I continued to Kibwe near Kabinda.
F: Mm.
L: Going (there) to hold the ceremony for this supervisor.
F: I see.
L: I have been going there.
F: To, to ...
L: ...?...
F: ...to install him.
L: Yes. That’s when I found that there were lot of people who had come to that place from Stan(leyville). Lots of them. And we increased (membership) when we got there up to three hundred and sixty. Mm.
F: I see.
L: Yes.
F: (So much about) that side, the Kasai.
L: Mm, Kasai.
F: Furthermore, what about the lower Zaire?[55]  K: Maniema.
F: In Maniema also?
L: In Maniema (we are) at Kasongo, Malela, places like that.
F: Kisangani?
N: Kisangani.
L: There are some in Kisangani but there is no one who could give them support.
F: Mm.
L: Or would like to.
F: In Equateur (province)? No.
L: In Equateur not yet.
F: Not yet.
L: No.
F: Where else, in the Lower Congo, in Kinshasa?
L: Over there not yet.
N: ...?...
L: Not yet, no.
F: Not yet.
L: No.
 

17. F: mm/ si mulikwa na réprésentant légal mu: mu Kinshasa?
L: hapana/
N: ...?...
L: tulikuwa nayee Kalemie/
N: mm/ réprésentant ya Kalemie/ eh/
L: tulikuwa nayee Kalemie/
F: oui/
L: ahah/
N: mm/
F: na: eh: yee alikuletea...
L: ...alileta fujo pale/ [chuckles]
F: fujo/
L: eheh/
N: eheh/
L: ni mutoto tuli: tulibeba diplôme yake: kufwatana commission à l’état: pale anakuya sasa [claps] hakusikie maana ya kuweza kuchunga kazi ya buréprésentant bado/ alifika: tunaanza kumulipa muzuri:
F: mm/
L: nyumba kwa bure: lakini sasa: hakusikie kama: eh? Jamaa ni nini/
F: ahah/
L: eheh/ na na hii shtaka ya Jamaa nitapa:  napashwa kufanya nini?
F: mm/
L: sasa akaanza fujo kabisa/ ni pale sasa: bamembres balikuwa namutosha/
F: mm/
L: mm/
F: alikuwa: alikwa juriste ou quoi? alikuwa: alifwata ya se: masomo gani?
L: ni hh...
N: kwa kipimo fwata formation yake: mm: ts:...?... ilikuwa...
L: ...cours du soir/
N: presque ca: ca: presque catéchiste/ ilikuwa caté: caté...
F: aah oui/
N: ... catéchiste/
L: eheh/
F: catéchiste eh/
N: ou puisque wali: ni papier iko alipatia mu Burundi:
L: ahah/
N: mm/ sema njo: oh: ni nani: mwisho pale tunakutwa ...?... des près: njo tulifika anakuwa marqué/
F: mm/
L: sasa hakuwa normal kwa sababu alikuwa na ile banaita mizuka/ eh: alikuwa anaanguka hivi...
N: ...?...maSaint-Esprits/
L: maSaint-Esprits ya huku/
N: ...?...des Saints-Esprits/
F: yee?
L: aah/ sasa dini....
N: [overlapping] ...anafanya makala hii/
F: ka: kutetemeka:
N: aah/ [chuckles]
F: kuanguka...
L: aah/ sasa tukaona kama yee...
F: ...waCharismatiques/
L: eheeh/ sasa tukaona haitaweza hapana/ sasa akaleta ile sabotage zaidi/ baati muzuri: l’état ...?... naye alimuandika barua: ana: mutosha kabisa/
F: mm/
N: mm/
F: mm/
 

17. F: Mm. Didn’t you have a legal representative in Kinshasa?
L: No.
N: ...?...
L: We had one in Kalemie.
N: Mm, there was a legal representative in Kalemie, yes.
L: We had one in Kalemie.
F: Yes
L: Yes.
N: Mm.
F: And he caused you...
L: ...he caused a mess there. [chuckles]
F: A mess.
L: Yes.
N: Yes.
L: He was quite young and we had come up with the expenses for his diploma so he would stay in touch with the government commission. When he came (to work) [claps] (it turned out) that he was not capable yet of doing his job as a representative. We had paid him well when he arrived.
F: Mm.
L: (He had) a house for free. But then he did not understand what the Jamaa is about.
F: I see.
L: Yes. (Nor did he have an idea) what to do about the litigation the Jamaa was involved in.
F: Mm.
L: Then he began really to mess up things. That’s when the members fired him.
F: Mm.
L: Mm.
F: Was he a lawyer, or what? What was his training?
L: He was, well...
N: To evaluate his training, mm, ts, ...?...it was...
L: ...evening courses.
N: (He was) close to becoming a catechist.  (His training) was as a cate...
F: I see, yes.
N: ...a catechist.
L: Yes.
F: A catechist?
N: (And there were questions) because he had gotten his papers in Burundi.
L: Yes.
N: Mm. (We did not really know) who he was and when we finally had a closer look we came to the conclusion that he was marked.
F: Mm.
L: He was not normal because he was afflicted by what they call mizuka.[56] Yes, he used to fall down like...
N: ...?... the Holy Ghost people.
L: (Like) the Holy Ghost people around here.
N: ...?... the Holy Ghost people.
F: He?
L: Yes. A religion...
N: [overlapping]...he had those states.
F: When he was shaking.
N: Yes. [chuckles]
F: Falling (into trance).
L: Yes. That’s when we saw that he...
F: ... (like) the Charismatics.
L: Yes. So we saw that this was not going to work and he did a lot of damage. Luckily, the government wrote him a letter and fired him.
F: Mm.
N: Mm.
F: Mm.

18. F: bon/ kumbe tuko: minaona tuko: munaendelea tu très bien/ minashangaa ah? quarante mille? [claps]
L: ahah/
F: vraiment?
L: tunaongezeka sana/
F: aah/
L: wengi sana/
F: na juu ya: ya kuendelesha église: muko na: muko besoin na: na mafonds etcetera/ donc: njo ni sadaka ya bantu:
L: mm/
F: wanaletaka:
L: mm/
F: wanafika ku eklesia/
N: mm/
L: ahah/
F: ah/
N: sadaka njo iko inapi...?...saidia:
L: yee inapima kusaidia kidogo/
F: mm/
L: moyens de transport: paka ile/
F:oui oui oui/
L: na kwa kujenga:
F: oui/
L: manyumba/ mara moya moya/ fasi moya moya:
F: [overlapping] muliisha kujenga: sawa: eklesia bien?
L: bado/ tunaanza sasa/
F: [overlapping] bado/
L: kama karibu tuko nayenga nyumba bloc ciment sasa/
F: ah bon?
L: eh/
F: mm/
L: lakini fonds ni kidogo/ tunajenga kwa utape sasa/
F: c’est ça/
L: ni wazo tunafanya shi: kwa sababu kule ku se: direction wantu wanasikia/ wanatoa ya kuishirika/
F: mm/
N: na wanafanya Makuta ya shirika: tunatosha kwa kujenga tu/ [claps]
F: mm/
L: eheh/
F: na tena: eh: kwa kupata: ruhusa ya: ya: ya état: munasamba paka hapa mu: mu: mu Lubumbashi?
N: eeh/
F: ku: ku nani? ku région?
L: dossier inaanza ku région: ku divisionaire hapa/
F: divisionaire ya?
N: division justice/
F: njo justice...
L: aah/
F: ...ya culte...?...
L: ahah/
N: mm/
L: kiisha gouverneur ana....
F: ...ni nani huyu?
L: Ilunga/
N: mm/ Ilunga ?Mgaa? ouais/
L: eheh/ Ilunga...
F: ...munasikilizana naye?
L: ndiyo: tunasikilizana naye sana/
N: mm/
L: hh/
F: mina: pengine minafahamu: sijue/ ...?...
N: ...?...
L: iko kazia: iko mulâtre/
F: mulâtre?
N: eyo/
L: ahah/
N: iko Mulenda wa Nzinya/
K: jina yake uKristo kama ni...
L: ...ni muntu wa zamani sana/
K: muntu wa zamani/
F: ah oui/
L and N: mm/
K: lakini mi nalianza kumufahamu tu lakini/
L: ni yee anatusaidia ya kutosha/ kwa sababu aliona dossier yetu: alituongoza sana/ kadiri ya ule magumu: aliongoza dossier yetu paka yee tulifika mu mwisho/ kiisha gouverneur aliaprouver:
F: mm/
L: njo pale tulipata attestation/
F: na baaskofu wa: habafanye: nguvu ya:kusaboter hii? non/ banakuacha/
N: mais hasa ile: nguvu ya ng: nguvu ya kusaboter: bon: beko naingia sawa mu manyumba groupe à quartiers/ ya mitaa/
L: ahah/
N: njo wanawaomba asema fundisha ile Jamaa: njo wanaomba patia kule/
F: mm/
N: mm/ de seul dès iko...?... batu: bon: kumbe benye kufwata Jamaa: asema non: Jamaa iko kwetu/ si yee mafundisho/
L: eheh/
F: mm/
N: ...?...
F: na ile wakati ya sasa: wali: tosha malistes ya: makanisa défendues eh?
N: ndiyo/
F: hamukuwa ku liste?
N: non/ shee ha: ku ile liste ya cent soixante-cinq églises...?...défendues: hatuna/
L: [overlapping] ya: hatunako/
F: non/
L: si tuko na liste ingine/
N: tuko na liste ya maéglises: iliisha remplir maconditions:
K and L: eheh/
N: iko nachunga nani: signature ya: ya ordonnance présidentielle/
K: [overlapping] ...?.../
F: oui/
N: ...?...
F: muko mu ile liste?
L: eheh/
K: liste tu/
N: ahah/
L: na tuli: tulipewa tena attestation mupya/
F: ahah/
L: ya: mu sawa: ya mu: septante-huit/
N: [overlapping]...?...
L: eh: quatre-vingt six/
N: ya...?... quatre-vingt-six/
L: mm/
F: oui/
L: ahah/
F: kumbe: ile ngambo haina: hana hatari/
N: mm hakuna...
L: hakuna hatari kabisa/
F: mm/ ça c’est bien/ mm/
 

18. Alright. So, I see we – you are moving forward nicely. I am amazed – forty thousand (members)? [claps]
L: Yes.
F: Really?
L: We are really growing.
F: I see.
L: Lots of people (joined us).
F: And about promoting the church – among other things, you need funds. (I assume) they come from peoples' donations.
L: Mm.
F: (What) they bring.
L: Mm.
F: When they come to church.
N: Mm.
L: Yes.
F: Ah.
N: Donations help.
L: They try to help a little.
F: Mm.
L: With things like the means to travel.
F: Yes, yes, yes.
L: And to build ...
F: Yes.
L: ... houses, now and then, here and there.
F: [overlapping] Have you managed to build a decent church?
L: Not yet, we are going (to build one) soon.
F: [overlapping] (But) not so far.
L: When we get to it we put up a building of cement blocks.
F: Oh yes?
L: Yes.
F: Mm.
L: But our funds are small. Right now we are building with mud bricks.[57]
F: That’s it.
L: It’s a plan we have (and we can do it) because people understand where it leads us. They contribute to a common fund.
F: Mm.
N: And, as they contribute money, we spend it on building. [claps]
F: Mm.
L: Yes.
F: Another question: To get permission (for your church) from the government, are you arguing your case here in Lubumbashi?
N: Yes.
F: Where. At the level of the Region[58]?
L: The case started at the Region, with the local head of the department.
F: Department of what?
N: Department of Justice.
F: So it is the justice department ...
L: Yes.
F: ... (which is responsible) for matters of religion.
L: Yes.
N: Mm.
L: After that, the governor...
F: ...who is this?
L: Ilunga.[59]
N: Mm. Ilunga ?Mgaa? Yes.
L: Yes, Ilunga...
F: ...are you getting along with him?
L: Yes, we understand each other quite well.
N: Mm.
L: Yes.
F: Maybe I know him, I don’t know...?...
N: ...?...
L: It’s in his hands. He is of mixed descent.
F: Of mixed descent?
N: Yes.
L: Yes.
N: (His full name is Ilunga) Mulenda wa Nzinya.
K: His Christian name is something like...
L: ...he is a real old timer.
K: And old timer.
F: I see.
L and N: Mm.
K: I got to know him.
L: He was the one who helped us overcome problems. When he saw our case he did a lot for us to get it settled. When we had those problems he guided us toward a conclusion. After that, the governor gave his approval.
F: Mm.
L: That’s when we got the certificate.
F: And what about the bishops – did they make an effort to sabotage this? No, they left you alone.
N: They did make efforts to interfere by contacting members at home in their neighborhoods.
L: Yes.
N: Asking of them that they should ask (the bishops) for permission to teach Jamaa.
F: Mm.
N: Mm. Of course the people who were members of the Jamaa said no, the Jamaa is where we are, not in the teachings.
L: Yes.
F: Mm.
N: ...?...[60]
F: And what about those lists of prohibited churches that were published recently?
N: Yes.
F: (I take it) you are not on a list?
N: No. We are not on the list of 165 banned churches.
L: [overlapping] We are not on it.
F: No.
L: We do have another list.
N: We have a list of churches that have met the conditions (for legal status).
K and L: Yes.
N: It is guaranteed by the signature on a presidential decree.
K: [overlapping] ...?...
F: Yes.
N: ...?...
F: So you are on that list?
L: Yes.
K: Right on the list.
N: Yes.
L: And we also got a new certificate.
F: I see.
L: That one came in ’78.
N: [overlapping] ...?...
L: Or rather in ’86.
N: The one (that came) in ’86.
L: Mm.
F: Yes.
L: Yes.
F: So, there is no danger from that side.
N: Mm, there isn’t.
L: There is no danger at all.
F: Mm. That’s good. Mm.

19. bon/ mais: [pauses] tuko na Jamaa ingine/ tuangarie: sasa: kama ni namna gani/ [pauses] munaona namna gani? sawa ile hapa mu Lubumbashi tuko na ma: ba: ba: Sébastien: na baValentin:
L: mm/
F: etcetera/ unielezee: sawa ku macho yo: ku mecho yako unaonaona namna gani bale?
L: ku macho yangu: sisi tulikwanza église: tulikuja kufika mbele/ ku mbele Valentin/
F: mm/
L: tunamuambia: tunaleta église/
F: mm/
L: si tuko signaler na Mungu: anatuonyesha kama mutapigana vita sana/ tena mu ?patiseka/
bon: tunaleta église/
F: mm/
L: akakataa/
F: anakatala/
L: mu septante-sept eh?
N: septante-sept/
L: bon: minaanza kucontinuer...
F: ...na yee: nani:
L: Valentin/
F: Valentin nani: eeh:
L: Kaumba/
F: oui oui Kaumba mais:
N: Baba Valentin/
F: ou baba ingine?
N: ahah/
F: Kadima?
L: Kadima/ na ...?..,nilifanya: nilifanya conférence/
K: na isiungwe:
L: isiungwe/ kiisha kufanya conférence:
F: hapa mu Kamalondo?
L: hapa Kamalondo/
N: mm/
L: ki: minakwenda Kalemie:
F: mm/
L: kiisha kwenda Kalemie: njo kukatoka bantu: tatu/ Kibombo:
K: mm/
L: Kalala:
K: mm/
L: na nani tena?
K: yo: yo: nani? yo yo nani: Banza Fortu...
L: Banza Fortunat/ bakaniandika mukanda Kalemie/ sema si tunapenda kabisa/ mi nikasema hapana/ nikarudia hapa: nikafanya conférence tena/ nikasema: mu kintangu kabisa inafaa tuwe umo:
K: umoja/
L: haifai bengine batengane/ ah: mu conférence: banaweka ...?...pale: sauti yangu mule/
F: mm/
L: sasa banaanza kukombana: nikasema hapana/ kama munataka kukombana: mupatane kwanza/ ile mambo ya Kalemie mitakwenda kirefu sana/
F: mm/
L: haitamalizika hapana/
F: mm/
L: kumbe mupatane/
F: mm/
L: mi nikaenda: bakabakia/
F: mm/
L: sasa kukapita karibu miaka haikutoshe/ kiisha njo huyu anakwenda sasa/ kwenda ?kuélever église/
F: Baba Kimuni/
L: Baba Kimuni/
F: mm/
L: na yee wakati ana...?... église: anapata magumu sana/ hapa/
K: ...?...nilibaomba: ni wengi/
L: alibaomba/
F: mm/
L: alipata magumu sana/
F: balikatala?
L: ah/
K: ahah/ Baba Valentin anasema ah hii mawazo...?... hapana/
L: eheh/
K: mi nikafika ku Baba Félix humu: yee Mutema...?...iendeleshe: anakatala/
L: eheh/
K: asema: miye hapana/
L: récensement alifanya/
K: récensement beko naye/
L: tulituma mutu kufanya récensement hapa/
F: mm/
L: Kikwasa: ule sécretaire tulikwa naye wa kwanza/
F: mm/
L: anafanyisha asema yote: balikubaya/  Kongolo balifanya récensement: fasi yote tu/ kiisha minaona pale magumu inapita: sasa njo nilipita Kolwezi mu quatre-vingt-deux/ minasema bon: munapatana mweye/ balianza mawazo na Baba Placide: mutuletee namna ya kwenda na kanisa/ minaweza kutengeneza mambo ya administration: lakini mambo ya Jamaa: inafaa mweye muitengeneze iwe muzuri zaidi/ kupita mbele/
F: mm/
L: kama ilikuwa iko haribika: sasa muitie mu njia: muzuri/
F: mm/
L: ni pale sasa: bakalifanya hii céremonie pale: ku Musonoi/
F: mm/
L: eeh/
F: mm/
L: bale ?basa bo benyewe/
F: oui oui/
L: ahah/ tangu pale: na leo hii/ na sasa tuko na magumu na bale: sisi tuko napenda kutafuta njia: basiite Jamaa/ na basiyo baJamaa/ sisi/
F: mm/
L: tuliisha kufanya na kitabu kimoya:
N: mm/
L: kiko na Thomas: tunasema Jamaa ni mbili: ao ni moja? niliisha kutunga hii kitabu: kiko na Thomas: akaipita mastencils bado/
F: ile ni: hapana?
N: mm/
L: ingine/
N: ...?...
L: eheh/
F: ni kusema: ah ça: yee mina: inafaa mi sikie vizuri/
N: mm/
F: munasema nini? munasema Jamaa...
K: ...Katolika hainamo/
L: ...Katolika hainako/
K: eh/
F: hanako/
N: mm/
L: hainako/ ile tunapigania: hatutapigania isiwako/
F: mm/
L: na basiite Jamaa/ na bo mpaka leo beko na ngopa vile/ beko nasema: hii ni Jamaa Kato:
K and L: Katolika/
F: oui/
N: haba: habaite tena Jamaa asema tena...
L: ...habajiite Jamaa Takatifu hapana/
F: hapana: no no...
L: ...ahah/
N: ...?... ni Jamaa Katolika/
L: ah ni Jamaa Katolika/ banafichamo vile eeh/
N: mm/
L: na si nabo tunayua kama: vile baskofu walidécider kama Jamaa hainako: na hii Jamaa ya Baba Placide inabakia ku i:
F and L: inje/
L: ni basi/
F: mm/
L: ahah/
F: mais: kwa bale bengine: banaachana tena/ sawa be: bengine baliisha kutubu:
L: mm/
F: be: bengine habaku: habakutubu/
L: habakutubu eeh/ ndiyo/
F: eh?
L: hh/
F: si unaona: ba: naz: nazani baValentin habakutubu/
L: baValentin? habakutubu/
F: mm/
L: na kiisha..
N: na ni yeye: njo ananiita asema vita mu ...?... sawa ni: bon: baévêques/
F: mm/
N: njo kuwayawaya...?...
L: [overlapping]...ya Baba Valentin/
N: sasa bon: ile hakutubu: lakini banamurudisha/ de sorte que bo: haba ni: bon: baJamistes: donc: baJamistes ingine: bon: pa kuona asema: baba anarudia: bafwate/
F: mm/
N: oh donc: njo bale nini: yee iko katika: ku ile vita: ni Baba Valentin/ njo anamu: anamuaprocher:
L: mm/
N: ... juu ...?...sasa...
F: banamuitika: sasa anae: anaenda ku eklesia na ku sakramenta nao yo?
N: si kusema sisadiki/
K: hapana/
L: hakomunike Valentin/
N: hakuminike/
K: Valentin anakomunika/ kama namna ya kupita watu: batu bengine ba...
L: ...bale: ba: lakini baKaumba ba muko nabo habakumonika hapana/
K: baFélix Ilunga habakumonike/
L: aah/ ni namna ya tu kuvuta  bantu/
N: ni kuvuta tu/
L: na mwenyewe alileta fujo yote ni Valentin/
K: Valentin njo mutu anaharibisha/
L: njo anaharibisha kabisa/
F: mm/
L: ni muntu tulikuwa naconseiller muzuri sana saa yote muzima/ lakini yee anaharibisha zaidi maneno ya Baba Placido: anaitia tena: tangu zaidi/ mm/
K: bapères balimupa muzi...?.../ ya kusema: ulishi ni wee unafanyaka nguvu ulitoka na wale bantu inje/
F: mm/
K: kama wenda: kwenda ku ngambo ya Marcel: batu bote ni ya toka/ balitoka ya tu ku ile mawazo ya kitabu ...?... kokote bale batu wote bale ni hii kazi bali mupa/ mais/ huyu  ni...
N: walipita charge ya kabisa/ ya kufreiner: de sorte que Jamaa: irudie Katolik/
F: ah oui/
N: eheh/
F: oui/ na sasa: tena ba: eh: minaona inaachana tena kwa: kwa: Mama: sawa Mama Kabole Monique/
N: mm/
L: mm/
K: Kabole Monika: Valentin Kaumba: ni kitu moya/
F: kintu moya/
K: eh/ ni ngambo moya hivi/
F: mm/
L: sasa Kalala:
K: ...?...
L: Kalala Tshibungu: beko na ile Marie kama ni Bikira Maria:
K: mm/
L: kinakomba partie...
F: banani? nani?
L: ...?...
N: ...njo mu ungo ya Thérèse:
L: na Céleste/
N: ...?...à coté nani: ya...
L: eheh/
N: ...ya Mama Rosalie/
F: oui/
N: kuunguya ...?...fasi ingine: mu ...?...pale ba: bale Tshibungu/
K: Gustave/
F: Gustave/ Tshibungu/
L: ahah/
N: mm/
F: aaah oui/ ni huyu/
N and L: eheh/
F: oui oui niko mufahamu: oui oui/
L: anatoka ...?...
N: sasa ...?... pamoya na Rosalie....?.... nani: baKalala Pascal/
L: naye/
N: mm/
F: nao/

19. But [pauses] we also have another Jamaa. Let us consider how [pauses] – what is your view of (of that other Jamaa). For instance, here in Lubumbashi we have the groups of (Baba) Sébastien and (Baba) Valentin...
L: Mm.
F: ... and others. Explain to me, how do you see one another?
L: In my view, it was us who started the church. (When we did that) we first visited (Baba Valentin).
F: Mm.
L: We bring (the plan for) a church, we told him.
F: Mm.
L: We consulted God and He showed us that, if we tried, we would get involved in a serious conflict. Alright, we came with
(the plan for) a church (to Valentin).
F: Mm.
L: He rejected it.
F: He rejected it.
L: (That was) in ’77, right?
N: In ’77.
L: Alright, I stuck to it...
F: ...and he, who was it again...
L: ...Valentin.
F: Valentin, what was his other name...
L: Kaumba.
F: Yes, yes Kaumba but...
N: Baba Valentin.
F: Or was there another Baba?
N: Yes.
F: Kadima?
L: (Yes) Kadima. So I organized a conference.
K: Which did not come to an agreement.
L: It didn’t. After organizing that conference...
F: Here in Kamalondo?
L: Here in Kamalondo.
N: Mm.
L: ... I went to Kalemie.
F: Mm.
L: When I was back in Kalemie three people came forward: Kibombo.
K: Mm.
L: Kalala.
K: Mm.
L: And who else?
K: Who was it again, Banza Fortu(nat).
L: Banza Fortunat. They wrote a letter to me in Kalemie saying, we like (your plan) very much. I said no (we have to do this right). I returned here (to Lubumbashi) and called another conference. I said, in this time of struggle we must be uni...
K: ...united.
L: It must not happen that some go their separate ways. Well, at that conference ...?... my voice (was heard).
F: Mm.
L: Then they began arguing among each other. No, I said, if you want to argue you should first encounter one another.[61] I am going all the way whith what we started in Kalemie.
F: Mm.
L: It won’t be stopped.
F: Mm.
L: So, you come to an encounter.
F: Mm.
L: I went away, they stayed on.
F: Mm.
L: Then years went by and nothing happened. Finally this man here moved and took steps to put up a church.
F: Baba Kimuni.
L: Baba Kimuni.
F: Mm.
L: And he, too, ran into a lot of trouble when he set up a church, here (in Lubumbashi).
K: ...?... I asked many (of the Jamaa leaders).
L: He asked them.
F: Mm.
L: He ran into a lot of trouble.
F: They refused?
L: Yes.
K: Yes. Baba Valentin said, ah, I don’t like this idea.
L: Yes.
K: I then went by Baba Felix Mutema here to promote (our plan). He refused.
L: Yes.
K: He said, not (with) me.
L: He did (participate in) the count.
K: They have the count.
L: We had sent someone to do the count here.
F: Mm.
L: Kikwasa, the first secretary we had.
F: Mm.
L: He had everything done, he said, but they...?...[62] They did the count in Kongolo, everywhere. Then I saw that there were too many problems there (in Lubumbashi). That was when I went to Kolwezi in ’82. I said alright, you have come together – they had started with the thoughts of Baba Placide – (now) make it possible for us to proceed with the church. I can take care of administrative matters but in matters of the Jamaa it is for you to settle them, they have priority.[63]
F: Mm.
L: Should things go wrong, put them right again.
F: Mm.
L: So then they held this ceremony there in Musonoi.
F: Mm.
L: Yes.
F: Mm.
L: They (did it) themselves.
F: Yes.
L: Yes, ever since, up to this day. And now we have a conflict with them. We would like to find a way to avoid calling (the church) Jamaa. We are not members of (the other) Jamaa.
F: Mm.
L: We produced a book.
N: Mm.
L: Thomas (Nyembo Kayaba) has it. We say (in it), is the Jamaa two or one? I put this book together, Thomas has it but it hasn’t been mimeographed it yet.
F: This isn't the one I have?
N: No.
L: It’s another one.
N: ...?...
L: Yes.
F: In other words – ah, this is something I need to get right.
N: Mm.
F: What are telling me? You say the Jamaa...
K: ...Katolika[64] does not exist.
L: ... there is no Katolika.
K: No.
F: There is none.
N: Mm.
L: It does not exist. We are not going to fight with something that doesn’t exist.
F: Mm.
L: And they should not call it Jamaa. These days, they are still full of fear. The say, this one is the Jamaa Kato...
K and L: ...Katolika.
F: Yes.
N: They should no longer call it Jamaa...
L: ... they should not call themselves Jamaa Takatifu (Holy Jamaa).
F: No, (but this is not what I am after).
L: Ahah.
N: ...?... it’s Jamaa Katolika.
L: Yes, it’s Jamaa Katolika, that’s what they are hiding under.
N: Mm.
L: We and they know, when the bishops decided that the Jamaa does not exist, it meant that the Jamaa of Baba Placide is now out...
F and L: ...outside.
L: Definitely.
F: Mm.
L: Yes.
F: Still, there are differences among (some of) the others. There are those who did abjure.
L: Mm.
F: And those who did not abjure.
L: They did not abjure, no.
F: Right?
L: Yes.
F: You are ware that, I believe, the group of a Valentin did not abjure.
L: The group of Valentin? They did not abjure.
F: Mm.
L: And eventually...
N: ... he called me in and said it's the bishops who make war.
F: Mm.
N: They don’t know where they are going...?...
L: [overlapping]... with Baba Valentin.
N: But then, although he did not abjure they took him back.[65] So, when Jamaa members, other members (not we), saw this they told themselves that they should follow Baba (Valentin) who had gone back.
F: Mm.
N: All in all, Baba Valentin is in the middle in this war. That’s why they went to him.
L: Mm.
N: About...?...
F: They accepted him – does he now go to church and receive the sacraments with them?
N: I don’t believe so.
L: Valentin does not go to communion.
N: He doesn’t go to communion.
K: Valentin goes to communion whenever there is a way to avoid those others...
L: ...those others. But the followers Kaumba has don’t go to communion.
K: The followers of Félix Ilunga don’t go to communion.
L: Ah, (communion) is just a means to tempt people.
N: It’s just bait.
L: It is Valentin who caused all the confusion about this.
K: Valentin is a destructive person.
L: (What he does) is really destructive.
F: Mm.
L: He is someone who always gave us good advice[66] but he damaged the cause of Baba Placide, no matter how often he invoked him. Mm.
K: The priests told him, you are the one who insisted that you did everything (to avoid a break) and then you left with those people.
F: Mm.
K: If you were to go over to Marcel’s side --  everyone has left. The left behind those thoughts from the book, everywhere, all those people, this is the work they gave him. But this one is...[67]
N: They made a big effort to put on the brakes so that the Jamaa would come back to the Catholic (church).
F: I see, yes.
N: Yes.
F: Yes. Now to something else. I observed that things are different again with Mama Kabole Monique.
N: Mm.
L: Mm.
K: Kabole Monique and Valentin Kaumba -- they are one and the same (lit. one thing).
F: One and the same.
K: Yes, they are on the same side.
F: Mm.
L: Now, Kalala.
K: ...?...
L: Kalala Tshibungu, his group (has this thing) about Maria, the Virgin Mary.
K: Mm.
L: (That is another) faction in this fight.
F: Who are they?
L: ...?...
N: ... it’s the faction of Thérèse.
L: Together with Céleste.
N: ...?...  next door to...
L: Yes.
N: ...Mama Rosalie.
F: Yes.
N: They come together in another place, where the group of Tshibungu (meets).
K: Gustave.
F: Gustave, Tshibungu.
L: Yes.
N: Mm.
F: I see, yes, he is the one.
N and L: Yes.
F: Yes, yes. I know him, yes.
L: He (also) left...?...
N: Now, together with Rosalie they are with the group of Kalala Pascal.
L: With him.
N: Mm.
F: With them.
 

20. ile ni mambo sasa: ile ni mambo munene sana/
L: mm/
F: ba: bacharismatiques/
L: mm/
F: eh?
N: eheh/
F: sawa kama unao: kama unafika hapa: unaangaria mambo vile ine: iliendelea: [claps] zamani: Jamaa: ilikuwa tu presque peke yake/
L: ahah/
N: mm/
F: mm?
K: mm/
F: balikuwa sawa tunasema mu: mu français mo: na monopole/
N: ahah/
F: [laughs]
N: ah ni kitu ya yee peke/
L: ya yee peke yake/
N: hapana mwengine/
L: ahah/
F: baLégion balikuwa mais:
L: habakuwa na kitu/
F: habana important:
L: mm/
F: ba: Mouvement Familial:
N: mm/
F: balikuwa mais:
K: mm/
F: Jamaa ilikuwa tu ...?...
L: mm/
F: sasa: hapa sasa: minafika tena: miaka ilipita: minaona: muko na concurrence/
L: mm/
N: mm/
F: sawa tunasema mu français eh?
N: mm/
L: mm/
F: ngambo ya: mbele ngambo ya makanisa: mingi mingi sana/ ile makanisa tu: tunaonaka: ya Protestants: ya: ya:
L: mm/
F: ya namna yote/ mais zaidi: ku ngambo ya charismatiques/  munielezee sasa: [claps] kiloko sawa wee: mwee muliona: ah: ile mambo ya charismatiques/ ilitoka: wapi? ni kintu gani? banaf: eh?
L: ahah/
F: ...?... mu: mu Kalemie muko nao?
L: ndiyo/ nilisikia tu: siku...
F: ... ao mankundi ya sala?
L: eheh mankundi ya s: charismatique ni père moya: iko Moba/ tena ilianza na: [pauses] ule: kama ni père alikufa/
N: na: nani: abbé Mwamba/
L: abbé Mwamba/
N: ...?...
F: ...Mukulu Mwamba/
L: Mukulu Mwamba eeh/
N: njo nani: alitoka nayo huku: kupeleka nani...
L: [overlapping] ... na njo ?nyusu c'est: nani: huyu:
N: na abbé Kasongo/
L: abbé Kasongo/ sasa bale hatujiinteresser hatuzunguzake nabo hapana/
F: hapana?
L: eeh/ bo banatuongopa sisi sana/ mi bananiongopa sana/
F: juu ya ni: juu ya nini?
L: sawa mi sipende ile bitu/
F: eeh/
L: aah: njo bananiongopa habapende ku: kuungana mi hapana/
F: tena yee ni mutoto wa bantu wa Jamaa/
L: aaah/
F: Kasongo/
N: mm/
L: ahah/
F: Mukulu: alikuwa mu Jamaa vile vile?
L: hapana/ hakuwa mu Jamaa/
N: [overlapping] ...?...
K: na groupe ya Mukulu njo iko natumika: njo akatumika na Thérèse/
L: njo iko natumika na Thérèse/
K: mm/
F: Mama Thérèse ya...
N: ...hata nani: yee ...?... huyu ya Kabole ya ku Mama Rosalie:
F: mm/
N: ... mutoto huyu: anaitika ...?... Mukulu Mwamba/
L: ahah/
F: Kabole? mutoto ya Mama Monique?
N: eh eh/
L: ahah/
N: kumbe Mama Rosalie/
F: oui/
N: ...?... jeune fille Mama Kabole:
F: mm/
N: alitoka na ku Mukulu Mwamba/
F: mm/
L: na bo habatumike namna moya tena: banatumika mbali mbali/
N: ...?...namna mbali mbali/
L: beko namna mbali mbali kabisa/
F: namna gani?
L: katika matunjio yao/
F: mm/
L: haitumika katika umoja/
F: mm/
L: kuna groupe moya inasali zaidi kuliko ingine/ na kuna groupe ingine inasali: inatoka na Saint Esprit inyewe/
F: mm/
L: wazi wazi hivi/ kadiri banaona bo benyewe/
F: mm/
L: eheh/ lakini sasa hatuzunguzaka nabo/ date sijue kabisa: niliona tu ile kartas ya baskofu balian: eh bamon: bapadre munene: askofu: nazani askofu Kazeba: alisema juu ya charismatiques: nilisoma tu ile: niliona vile iko njo masala yao: sijue kama: ilianza namna gani/
F: mm/
L: na mi sikiaka tu/ aheh/ [chuckles]
N: hata mu hii mawazo nani: kuko nani: eeh: Monseigneur Kabongo/ ali: alikuwa ku Kananga/ ...?...
F: ile: ule: nani: Milingo?
N: sijue nani: Kabongo Emery/
F: ah bon/
L: Kabongo Emery eeh/
N: eheh/ assigner: alicondamner par example ni macharismatiques/
L: ahah/
N: tangu zamani: tunayua asema: Roho Mutakatifu ni Jamaa: ekoamo/
L: ndiyo/
N: lakini: si ya kutetemeka ao kuingia mu trance hapana/ mm/ Roho Mutakatifu ya Jamaa: eko kimya/ donc: beko banatumika kazi yake kimya/ mais ii ni kazi ya publicité/ [chuckles]
F: Mama Régine: unafahamu? Régine ni vile vile..
N: ...?...
F: ku: ku: karibu kwa: kwa Rosalie kule/
N: ...?...
F: oui oui/
N: njo na: magroupes ingne tena ilitoka ...?...kwa Mama Rosalie/  ...?...banatumika na nani: na ule Kabole ...?...il faut anaenda ku nyumba ataformer déjà yake groupe/
K: mm/
N: mule mu...
F: ...mais...
N: mu première ...?...banakomboka/
L: lakini humu mu magroupes: mu église yetu kulikuwa maparties moya moya: kulitoka bantu ya namna ile/ sawa vile Kapata:
N: mm/
L: nilikuwa na safari...
F: ...Kapata?
L: aah: nilikuwa na safari ...?...nakutana bantu karibu kumi na saba hivi/
N: mm/
L: eeh? banaanza kuomba: mi nilifika busiku: bananiambia kuko kanisa inaharibika huku:
F: mm/
L: bantu beko natokea na Esprit/
F: mm/
L: minafika mule: iko wanasema beko na na zunguzi: [changes his voice] Yesu Yesu: Yesu Yesu: Yes Yes: Yes Yes/ sasa nilishtuka pale/ bon: kiisha ku: nani: ?mesi kama jika: nikaanza kukamata mutu moya moya ku kichwa:
F: mm/
L: nikamuangaria:
F: mm/
L: ni kitu gani unaona? asema niko naona mutu mweusi: naona mutu mwi: mweupe: iko na hivi: paka vile/ hivi nilibaombea: nikanyamizisha: ilitaka kuharibisha église ku Kapata/
F: mm/
L: mm/ ilikuwa hatari sana/ tena ilikuwa partie ya Kongolo: zaidi ni bantu ya Maniema/ banatoka ...?...namna hivi/
F: ah bon/
L: eheh/ zaidi ?tulibaacha Maniema zaidi/ batoto: munafanya kibaya mu kanisa sawa tu [changing voice] muumu: mutala aunguka: basi/ ni nini? asema ni Roho/
hapana/ tulinyamizisha ile ilimalizika/
F: mm/
L: mm/ kanisa yetu fasi yote inama: hakuinapo hapana/
F: mm/
L: hh/
N: na tena ku ...?... tulitambua: zinga maKasai/
L: aah/
N: mm/ batu mm ?bazinge: bazinge  mingi à coté ya Kasai: wale watu kuwa vile/ mm/
F: mais: bacharismatiques: donc: [pauses] mbele ni Saint Esprit ina:
N: mm/
F: sawa vile bana: banasema...
N: ...asema...
F: ...ina: inabakamata/ bon/
N: ndiyo/
F: mais kazi yabo zaidi zaidi: ni [pauses] kama ni: aah: ts: kuponesha:
L: mm/
N: mm/ ponesha na ....?...kuagua: ça veut dire divination/
F: oui oui/ oui oui/ oui: sawa ku: kulaguisha sawa...?....
N: [overlapping] eh/
L: hata ile ya Kolwezi ilikuwa nguvu sana/ balikuwa naponesha: muntu ni mugonjwa wanaponesha/
F: mm/
L: tena banatosha madawa/
F: oui/ banatosha madawa oui/
L: ku manyumba/
F: ya bankisi:
L: eeh/ na banayua kama ile ...?... dawa anakwenda: lakini si tulikwenda tulisema hapana/ kwa sababu...
F: ...mu hii: balianza kule ku Kolwezi vile?
L: ...kule balianza vile/
F: mm/
L: watu wengi tu/ hakuyapita ?asima nazani mu quara: ni ...?...humu: humu mu nani: mu quatre-vingt-sept:
K: quatre-vingt-sept/
L: quatre-vingt-sept/
N: mm/
L: nilikuwa kunyamizisha hii/
F: baJamaa?
L: eheh baJamaa/ groupe moya hivi/
F: eh/
L: lakini moya alianza: ni mutu ya: Maniema/
F: Maniema/
L: kiisha na muSongye moya/
F: eheh/
L: sasa: ni groupe ya muzima: inakamata/ ...?... muzima/ sasa tu: balifanya nguvu sana: banaingiza bantu bamingi mu église eh?
F: mm/
L: banafanya: miracles/
F: oui oui/
L: sasa bakutoka nabo banatoka/ bengine tena asema: ah: hii inakuwa bintu ingine...
N: par réaction/
L: ingine/
F: eh?
L: aah/
N: njo réaction ya...
F: ... ni réaction/
N: ...banasema...?...mu Jamaa ile...
L: ...?...
N: ...minatoka/
F: aah/
L: banaanza kutoka/ sasa bengine nabo: banaingia...
N: ...wanasema non: au moins ya...?...miracle: twende/
L: [overlapping] [laughs] sasa si tulinyamizisha ile/ lakini: ilikuwa nguvu/ sababu kiisha kuiombea ilinyamaza: si tulipata choc/ tuliugua...

20. F: Now, that brings us to something that is really big.
L: Mm.
F: The Charismatics.[68]
L: Mm.
F: Right?
N: Yes.
F: When you come back here (to Lubumbashi) you observe how the situation has changed. [claps] In the past, the Jamaa was almost by itself.
L: Yes.
N: Mm.
F: Mm?
K: Mm.
F: They had, as we say in French, a kind of monopoly.
N: Yes.
F: [laughs]
N: That is something that belongs only to one.
L: Only to one.
N: Not to someone else.
L: Yes.
F: The Legion (of Mary) was around but...
L: They did not amount to anything.
F: They were not important.
L: Mm.
F: (The same goes for) the members of Mouvement Familial.
N: Mm.
F: They were around but...
K: Mm.
F: ... the Jamaa was (the most important movement).
L: Mm.
F: Now I have come back, years went by, and I see that you have competition.
L: Mm.
N: Mm.
F: As we say in French, right?
N: Mm.
L: Mm.
F: (Competition), first of all from those many churches we see around, churches that emerged from Protestants...
L: Mm.
F: All sorts of (churches) but above all on the side of Charismatics. Now, tell me [claps] a little about how you perceived what the Charismatics are about. Where did this come from? What is it? What are they doing? You understand?
L: Yes.
F: Do you have them in Kalemie?
L: Yes, one day I heard...
F: ... or (so-called) prayer groups?
L: Yes, the one who his behind those charismatic groups is a priest, he lives in Moba. And it started with [pauses] this priest who died.
N: With – who was this again? – Abbé Mwamba.
N: ...?...
F: ...Mukulu Mwamba.
L: Mukulu Mwamba, yes.
N: He was the one who brought (the prayer groups) to this place....
L: [overlapping] ...who was hooked up with...
N: With Abbé Kasongo.
L: Abbé Kasongo. Now, those are people who don’t interest us, we have nothing to do with them.
F: No?
L: No. They are very much afraid of us, especially of me.
F: Why is that?
L: I just don’t like those things.
F: I see.
L: Yes, that’s why they are afraid of me and don’t want to have anything to do with me.
F: Although he is the child of Jamaa people.
L: Yes
F: Kasongo.
N: Mm.
L: Yes.
F: Was Mukulu also linked to the Jamaa?
L: No, he was not in the Jamaa.
N: [overlapping]...?...
K: And Mukulu’s group works, or worked, with Thérèse.
L: He worked with Thérèse.
K: Mm.
F: Mama Thérèse of...
N: ... and then there is this (daughter) of Kabole’s, the one who is with Mama Rosalie.
F: Mm.
N: ...this young woman. She follows Mukulu Mwamba.
L: Yes.
F: Kabole? (You are talking about) a daughter of Mama Monique?
N:  Yes.
L: Yes.
N: About Mama Rosalie.
F: Yes.
N: ...?...  the young daughter of Mama Kabole.
F: Mm.
N: She left Mukulu Mwamba's group.
F: Mm.
L: And they no longer work together, they work apart.
N: ...?... apart.
L: They are far apart.
F: How so?
L: In their (methods of) healing.
F: Mm.
L: There is no cooperation.
F: Mm.
L: There is one group that prays more than the others. And there is another that prays and manifests the Holy Spirit.
F: Mm.
L: Quite openly, in the visions they have.
F: Mm.
L: Yes. But we don’t have any contact with them. I am not sure about the date but I saw this document the bishops wrote, or rather some big priest, a bishop, I think, bishop Kazeba. He talked about the charismatics. I only read about this. I saw what their prayers are like (but) I don’t know how this started.
F: Mm.
L: I have it only from what I keep hearing, that’s all. [chuckles]
N: In this connection, there is Monseigneur Kabongo. He was (bishop) in Kananga ...?..
F: (Do you mean) – what’s his name? – (bishop) Milingo?
N: I don't know who is, (I'm talking about) Kabongo Emery.
F: Ah, alright.
L: Kabongo Emery, yes.[69]
N:  Yes. He, for example, condemned the charismatics.
L: Yes.
N: Long ago we knew that the Holy Spirit is in the Jamaa.
L: Yes.
N: But this is not about shaking and going into trance. The Holy Spirit of the Jamaa is quiet. Therefore, his work is done quietly. But this (shaking and going into trance) is just a publicity stunt. [chuckles]
F: (What about) Mama Régine, do you know her? Régine is also ....
N: ...?...
F: (She lives) close to Rosalie there.
N: ...?...
F: Yes, yes.
N: There are still other groups that came away from Mama Rosalie. ...?... working together with this Kabole...?... All it takes is that someone goes home and, right away, he’ll form his own group.
K: Mm.
N: There in...
F: ...but...
N: ... in the first (group) they replace them.[70]
L: However, in the groups of our church here it happened now and then that people of that sort would come up, like in Kapata.
N: Mm.
L: I was travelling...
F: ...Kapata?
L: Yes. I was travelling when I met a group of about seventeen.
N: Mm.
L: You understand? (People) who started praying. I got there in the evening and was told, (our) church here is breaking apart.
F: Mm.
L: There are people who come out with the Spirit.
F: Mm.
L: When I got there they were whirling around, calling [changes his voice] Yesu Yesu, Yesu Yesu, Yes Yes, Yes Yes.[71] I was shocked. Then there was one who went into in a state like (a woman) in labor. One after the other, I to took hold of their heads.
F: Mm.
L: I looked at the person.
F: Mm.
L: What is it you see? I see, was the answer, a black person, I see a white person, things like that. So I prayed over them and made them stop talking. This was going to break up the church in Kapata.
F: Mm.
L: Mm. This was really dangerous. It also happened around Kongolo. It is above all people from Maniema who come up with this.
F: I see.
L: Yes. Above all (people from) Maniema. Children, (I told them), you are harming the church when you shout [changing voice], muumu, hitting the floor in a state of excitement. What is this? The Spirit, you say.
No way. We calmed them down and it was over.
F: Mm.
L: Mm. This has no place in our church, nowhere.
F: Mm.
L: Yes.
N: Also, ...?... we thought that it is going around among people from Kasai.
L: Yes.
N: Mm. Lots of people go around (like this) over there in Kasai, that’s how they are. Mm.
F: But, the charismatics, well [pauses] it begins with the Holy Spirit who...
N: Mm.
F: ... as they say...
N: ...saying...
F: ... iakes a hold of them. Fine.
N: Yes.
F: But more than anything else, their work is [pauses] – how shall I put it? – to heal.
L: Mm.
N: Mm. Healing and prophesying, in other words, divination.
F: Yes, yes. Yes, yes. Yes. Like consulting a diviner...?...
N: [overlapping] Yes.
L: This was very strong in Kolwezi. They practiced healing. If a person was sick they healed him or her.
F: Mm.
L: They also remove magic charms.
F: Yes. They remove charms, yes.
L: From houses.
F: (The magic) of statues.
L: Yes. And they know when this magic goes away. However we went there to tell them, no (this is not what we do). Because...
F: ...so they got into this there in Kolwezi?
L: ...they did.
F: Mm.
L: Many of them. Not long ago, I think it was this year, in ’87.[72]
L: ’87.
L: ’87.
N: Mm.
L: I put a stop to this.
F: (And those were) people of the Jamaa?
L: Yes, people of the Jamaa. One group.
F: I see.
L: But the one who started it was a person from Maniema.
F: Maniema.
L: And then there was a Songye.
F: I see.
L: It took hold of the entire group. Then they worked hard to get many people to join their church, you understand?
F: Mm.
L: (Claiming that) they worked miracles.
F: Yes yes.
L: When they left they went with them. Some said, ah, those are different things.
N: As a reaction.
F: Sorry?
L: Yes.
N: It was a reaction of...
F: ...it was a reaction.
N: ...that’s what they said in that Jamaa group...
L: ...?...
N: ...I’m leaving.
F: I see.
L: So they stared to leave while others joined...
N: ...they said, at least there are miracles, let’s go.
L: [overlapping] [laughs][73] We have this under control now, but it was difficult. After I had prayed over it calmed down. We had a shock and we prophesied...[74]
 

21. F: mais pourquoi: kwako: unawaza nini: kuponyesha ni kweli ao ni?
L: ts: kuponesha?
F: oui/ sawa vile Kasongo anafanya/
L: sisi hatusadiki/ kwa sababu tunaona kama inaweza kuwa antikristo/
F: mm/
L: bitaisha/ kwa sababu roho ya namna ile inakopa: si nikuendelee mapendo tu/
F: kumbe kupona: kupona ni kazi ya: ya banganga?
L: aah/ [chuckles] ...?...
F: c'est ça?
L: ile si hatusadiki/
F: si tena kwa kulaguisha: ni juu ya nini? ile: ni: mm: kintu minaona nabo nashangaa sana sana/
L: hh/
F: ni paka: juu ya bulozi/
L: mm/
N: ndiyo/ eh/
F: tulikuwa kusumbulia:
L: hh/
F: jana: jana kutwa: Musenge: abbé Musenge alifika/
N: njo Kamalondo/
K: eheh/ Musenge/
F: ni yee: yee alikuwa étudiant yangu, ah?
N: mm/
L: aah/
F: zamani alikuwa...?..../ na nilimuuliza asema kintu gani? nilifwata Jamaa depuis: vingt ans: [claps] na minaona: [claps] bulozi haina mambo important mu Jamaa/
L: hapana/ hainako/
N: [overlapping] eeh mm/
F: depuis mwanzo/
N: depuis mwanzo Kolwezi: haina/
L: aah/
F: eh? ni kusema: [pauses] juu ya nini? bale bantu bote: bote bana: bana: banaongopa bulozi: ni vite: nazani ni raison/ [pauses] zaidi raison zaidi kwa kupita ku: ku charismatiques:
N: kupita ndiyo/
L: mm/
N: eh/ ...?...
F: ni: ni kutosha bulozi/
N: mm/ njo ile nani:
L: [overlapping] ya kupona/
F: oui/ sasa bantu beusi hapa:
N: mm/
F: mu Afrika/ banasid: banasadiki ao non?
L: ndiyo/
N: oui/
F: kama bulozi iko/
K: banasadiki/
L: wanakuwa nasadiki/ kwa sababu mu Afrika tuko na: tuko na: kiantikristo anatumika sana/ tena na baruani/ eeh? kiisha baruani kuko ile wabaita: mizuka/ eeh/ na: majini/
F: mm/
L: baruani iko partie ya Tanganyika zaidi/ batu ya ku Tanganyika
F: baruani?
L: ba: baruani/ maana yake ni mutu: kama ananguka na ile: anaanza kusema luga ingine/
F: eheeh/
L: anaanza kusema luga ingine/ tuko na bengine mu kanisa yetu: tulikuwa na moya mama anataka kunamuombea naombea après: anamubarikia:
F: oui/
L: na yee anatoka sasa na ile Esprit yake anape: anapenda kubarikie/
F: eeh/
L: aah: ile tunaita baruani/
F: baruani
L: haishake mbio hapana/ anaweza kuwa na mambo ya kesho:
F: oui/
L: ya siku ingine: lakini: hapana kusadiki/ ni wongo/
F: mm/
L: ni shetani tu/ eheh/ [chuckles]
F: eheh/
L: ... hii na: mizuka: ni ile: ts: mizuka inafwata ku damu/
F: mm/
L: mara nyingi ku partie ya: ku watu wa Kasongo: tunaona mizuka: ni watu wanatumia kule ya nyama ya ngozi/
F: mm/
L: ni ya ngozi ya mbuzi zaidi/
F: [overlapping] mbuzi/ mm/
L: na bitu ya mbuzi/
F: mm/
L: eeh/ tu ni kama imara inakuwa vile mu kizazi/ kama anasikia ngoma kidogo tu:
N: eh/
L: anaanza kutetemeka/
N: mm/
L: mu ule wa namna ile kama unamupikia mara moya anaweza kutoka mutembo: eheh?
N: mm/ njo mu nani: ...?...eehm mareligions traditionnelles:
L: eheh/
N: ...?...
F: oui oui/
L: ba ba: baMbote eeh/
F: oui/ ya baMbote kule?
L: aah/
N: baMote tu/
L: tuna na hii/
N: ...?...
L: ...?...Mbote/
N: njo banatoka vile/
L: eh a...
N: banaanza kuagua/
L: ahah/
N: eheh/
L: lakini tunaimaliza: wee kulikuwa vile biko anakuwa malizika/ sababu tunasema hapana/ kwa sababu ...?...tunasema: lu: nani: hata unasema kwa luga lakini: yote itakoma: mapendo ita: itaendelea/
F: na tena ulikuwa na nkundi ingine?
L: eeh?
F: banataya tena?
N: eh wanataya tena ni majini/
L: majini/
F: majini?
L: eeh/ majini ni: ni watu wanakamatiwa na banasema mu yee kama ni mizimu ya mu maji/
F: mu maji?
L: eh mu maji/ kama vile bantu...
F: sawa baMamba Muntu ule?
L: eeh/ kama batu ku Tanganyika kule/
F: eeh/
L: banasema banakamatiwa na majini/ sasa: kama banakamatiwa ni hii majini: masungumuzo yake yote: ina: anasungumuza: mambo ya ku maji/
F: ahah/
L: eh yote tu/ kiSwahili aliyua nasema mambo ya ku maji/ nilitoka hivi: anataya malaki: nilitoka ku Port Franqi: nilitoka ku nini: kulaki ku océan: ku hivi na hivi: hh: mambo yake anaelekea tu kule/
F: eyo/
L: eheh/
N: mm/
L: sasa: antikristo si basi ni ule mutu: kama vile Kasongo/ si tunaona kama iko na antikristo/ sisi tunasema vile/
F: mm/
L: tulikuwa na moya: Baba Léopold: tulifanya miezi sita tunamulisha/ anabaki ku nyumba: tuko namulisha tunasema sasa unataka kutokea Roho: tunataka kupata muntu kwa kuwaza kwa agua nabii/ alafu tunaanza kumulisha kumulisha: aliweza kuwa mu nyumba iko nasema na sauti: na bibi yako: anasema na bantu: wee  huwezi kusikia ku inje/
F: eeh/
L: eeh/ munasikia tu ma...?...bantu bamingi/ tunasema mu antikristo: lakini tulikufungua nyumba tu: kama ni antikristo/ yee anaweza kucorompre weye: kukutia mu ile njia/
F: oui/
L: ule tunasema ni antikristo/ inadumu ile/
F: mm/
L: njo kama vile ya Kasongo/ si tunayua kama ni: antikristo/
F: mm/
L: itaisha/
F: mm/ [pauses] tena: ile mambo na: ya bulozi minaona vile vile: ni paka mu: mu jamaa: mu famille yabo/
L: ahah/
F: si vile?
L: ndiyo/
F: banatafuta: kama beko na ma:
magumu banafuta: nani/
L: eheh/
 

21. F: But why is it – what do you yourself think about healing, is it real (lit. true) or not?
L: Well. Healing?
F: Yes. The way (Abbé) Kasongo practices it.
L: We don’t believe in it. As we see it, it could be the Antichrist.
F: Mm.
L: It won't last. Because that kind of spirit is fraudulent. I want to go on with love.
F: So, healing is a job for healers?
L: Yes. [chuckles] ...?...
F: Is that it?
L: This (charismatic healing) we don’t believe in.
F: And is there not also this business of divination? What is it about? It’s something I observed among them and I was very much surprised.
L: Yes.
F: It is all about sorcery.
L: Mm.
N: That’s it, yes.
F: We had a conversation (about this).
L: Yes.
F: Yesterday or the day before, Abbé Musenge came (to see me).
N: He is the one in Kamalondo.
K: Yes, Musenge.
F: He used to be a student of mine,[75] you know?
N: Mm.
L: Yes.
F: That was long ago. So I asked him, what is this? I have been following the Jamaa for twenty years, [claps] and what I observed, [claps] was that sorcery was not an important matter in the Jamaa.
L: No, there is none.
N: [overlapping] No, mm.
F: Ever since the beginning in Kolwezi, it was not (important).
L: No.
F: Right? In other words, [pauses] why was that so? All around people fear sorcery and I think that this is the reason, [pauses] the main reason why they go over to the charismatics.
N: Go over, yes.
L: Mm.
N: Yes.
F: It’s to get rid of sorcery.
N: Mm.
L: [overlapping] To be healed.
F: Yes. Now, black people here...
N: Mm.
F: ... in Africa, do they or don’t they believe...
L: Yes.
N: Yes.
F: ...that sorcery exists?
K: They believe.
L: They are believers. Because in Africa the regimen of the Antichrist is hard at work. And there are the baruani, you understand? And besides the baruani there are the so-called mizuka. Yes, and majini.[76]
F: Mm.
L: (You have) baruani especially in regions (near Lake) Tanganyika, among the people there.
F: Baruani?
L: Baruani. It means a person who, when he falls into trance, begins to speak in another language.
F: I see.
L: He or she begins to speak in another language. We have some of them in our church. We had one mama who kept praying over a person whom she blessed afterwards.
F: Yes.
L: To manifest this Spirit of hers, she just loved to give blessings.
F: I see.
L: That is what we call baruani.
F: Baruani.
L: It doen't work quickly, it may go on tomorrow.
F: Yes.
L: The next day. But one doesn’t believe it. It’s a lie.
F: Mm.
L: The devil is behind it. Yes. [chuckles]
F: Yes.
L: About mizuka, well, mizuka follows the bloodline.
F: Mm.
L: Often we see mizuka among people from around Kasongo. There they use an animal skin.
F: Mm.
L: Mainly the skin of a goat.
F: [overlapping] A goat, mm.
L: And (other) parts of a goat.
F: Mm.
L: Yes. It’s like a power that goes with kinship. All such a person needs to hear is a little drumming.
N: Yes.
L: And he or she begins to shake.
N: Mm.
L: With people of this sort, one prod is enough to get them going, you understand?
N:  Mm. This is something that happens in traditional religions.
L: Yes.
N: ...?...
F: Yes, yes.
L: (Among) the Pygmies, (for instance).
F: Yes. Among the Pygmies?
L: Yes.
N: The Pygmies.
L: We find this...
N: ...?....
L: ...?... among the Pygmies.
N: They exhibit this.
L: Yes.
N: (And then) they begin to divine.
L: Yes.
N: Yes.
L: Those things went on for a while (in our church) but we put an end it. No, we said, you may speak in another language but all this will come to an end whereas love will last.
F: And wasn’t there another kind?
L: You mean?
F: What were they called again?
N: Yes, (there is another kind), called majini.
L: Majini/
F: Majini?
L: Yes, majini are people who get possessed, it is say by spirits who live in the water.
F: In the water?
L: Yes, in the water. When such people...
F: ... like this Mamba Muntu?
L: Yes. People on (Lake) Tanganyika.
F: I see.
L: It is said they are possessed by majini. Now, when they get possessed by those majini, all they talk about is what happens in the water.
F: Ahah.
L: Yes, everything. What such a person knows to put into language has to do with what happens in the water. I went away, he says, and he names the events that happened to him in Port Franqui, or wherever, in the sea, all sorts of things that he came upon there.[77]
F: Really.
L: Yes.
N: Mm.
L: Now, such a person is (with) the Antichrist, that’s all there is to it, and so is Kasongo. In our view he works with the Antichrist and that’s what we say.
F: Mm.
L: We had a certain Baba, Léopold. We fed him for six months. He stayed in the house and we gave him to eat. Now, we told him, you want to manifest the Spirit. That is going to give us someone who thinks he is a prophet. Still, we kept feeding him. He could be inside the house and make his pronouncements to your wife or others but you could not understand him outside.
F: I see.
L: Yes. You just heard a crowd. We said, we opened the house to someone who may be (working for) the Antichrist. He can corrupt you and put you on that road.
F: Yes.
L: That one, we say, is the Antichrist. He is persistent.
F: Mm.
L: It’s like what Kasongo does. We know it’s the Antichrist.
F: Mm.
L: (But) it will end.
F: Mm. [pauses] Another thing I observe about sorcery is that people find it in their family.
L: Yes.
F: Right?
L: Yes.
F: When they have problems they look for the one (who causes them).
L: Yes.
 

22. N: na ile ka: ni kama huyu nilivivre/
L: eeh/
N: hii jamaa yangu ilianzia began to get gani? ilikuwa mu septante-trois: sijue septante-huit ou septante-neuf/ bon/ baba nani: ba ya Kalala Pascal: alitosha idée asema non: batoto ba jamaa: nani: tulikuwa ba shee hivi: banadevinir malfaiteurs/ kuwa sawa juu ya jamaa wantu wa kuzamisha: njo batu...?...nafundishe/
F: mm/
N: il veut ...?...tulianza na ile groupe: njo ku nkundi...?...inaanza ni Kalala: njo...?...alianza na Kabole/
F: mm/
N: ni nilikuwa président ya groupe de jeunes/
F: mm/
N: après: ...?...Kabole: ni nani: ni ma:
L: ...?...
N: ...yake/ bon/ akasema bon: eh: président: bon: bantu banamuchukia/
F: mm/
N: mm/ ...?...: itakuya/ itapelekwa mu nyumba/ minasema bon beko nani: ba: bakasema bon: ni kitu mu nyumba: ni muzuri/ nilifika ku nyumba: kuko Mama Rosalie/
F: mm/
N: bon/ nilikuta ba bo: balikuwa mu ile ...?...mu séance/ mm: balikuwa kuimba mimbo moya: yee na iko naombea: mu kombea bantu/
pale ...?... nilifika inje: yee mu nyumba ...?...asema président anakuya/ umuingize/
F: mm/
N: akatoka inje sikufanya tena musululu: niliingia directement mupaka mu nani: mu salon/
F: mm/
N: bali: baliprésenter kichwa ...?.../ banasema huyu njo présent: président wa vijana mu ...?...ya Jamaa/
F: mm/
N: kiisha ...?...kote kuombea: bon/ banafika wakanipiga na muti/ mm: anase: ...?...alisema: mu ya kiKasai/
F: mm/
N: bon: baka ba nani: bakageuza asema non: président: iko anasema bantu banamuchukia sana/ juu ya nini? ku mafundisho: kunaendeka muzuri:
F: mm/
N: ku masomo tena eko ku campus: unaendea muzuri/ nikasema niendea muzuri/ bon: kuko sangaji yako: anakuchukia/
K: [overlapping] [chuckles]
N: seulement: sangaji ni tante patriliniaire/
F: oui oui/
N: mm/ sangaji yake anamuchukia: njo pale pashwa uangarie muzuri/
F: mm/
N: eh sangaji yako eko na mazimu/ tena mu groupe: kuko kijana: maneno ungali groupe de jeunes mwenyewe: kuko vijana ingine: eko wa kuwazia mubaya/ anatafuta kuloka/ pale balisema vile: niliona: niliona nani: passer devant: pourquoi garçon eko nafanya mizimu? asema huyu garçon: eko na bulozi/ juu ya nini? bazazi wale wakuwa: habakuwe mu Jamaa/ bazazi habakuwe mu Jamaa: si ...?... eko na bulozi/
F: mm/
N: après kuwaza nani: bakasema bon: kumbe président wende ku Kasai: ni: Kasai ni mufu/ nilitoka: nikaanza kuréflechir: minasema non: hii yote wanasema ni: bitu ya bongo/ sasa dernièrement nilipata barua: ya mu ...?...ya ba:
F: mm/
N: Kongolo: ilitaka batengenee: aliba?bankia asema oh: vaut mieux utembee nani: na nguo kupasuka: lakini batoto: bamilize masomo/ ...?... ni signe asema: alitupenda/
K: mm/
N: bon/ tena: kama bo tulifwata na mbele ya nani: ya humu Lubumbashi: hata ni tante maternelle batamuita asema ni sangaji/ minasema bon: tena: Ngunye: Ngunye ...?...ile
siku: ni Ngunye alisema/ Agathe/
F: mm/
N: ku locale ya mama/
F: mm/
N: nilikuwa pale niliongoya mu muloko/
F: mm/
N: sasa: mutu aliniuzia: bon: pa kuya ...?... maneno petu na ...?... ni yee/
K: eheh/
N: bulozi itakuwa nje/ nikata mule directement: asema non: hapana tena muzuri/
[chuckles] mm/ na njo wakati gu: groupe ilianza kutengana: ya ku mwisho nilichoka kutoka/
F: mm/
N: mm/ Kabole anabakia na yake groupe/
F: eyo/
N: eeh/ njo vile tuna...?... [chuckles] hh: njo: Kabole alian: alianzia mu groupe yetu/ na si ...?... mafundisho: mafundisho tuko tunafanya pa: ma...?... à côté ya kale SNCZ/
F: mm/
N: pa tunnel/
F: mm/
N: FOC/ tunafika: bon: Kabole alifika na groupe yake/ bakafika directement ba...?...mwenye masoeurs ni wafundie: banaikala/ bon/ mi en tant que président: kama bo banafika: minasema bon: tunamukia bote na bamembres: bamembres ya comité de jeunes/ c’est: pa kulamukia: asema hapana/ jambo itoka ku kinywa inenea/ c’est: juu ya nini? asema non: njo ku ronde ...?... balisema: kuko bengine kati yetu: beko na bulozi/ kumbe  tunalamukiana mu: mu mikono: tutapatia na bulozi/ pale mi minasema assez/ [chuckles]
F: mm/
N: njo ni kitu banakimbia sana: bulozi: [pauses] mm/
F: sasa muna: munawaza nini? juu ya nini baJama bana: banaweza bulozi/ habasadiki ao?
K: Jamaa sadiki...?.../
N: eh: Jamaa: baJamaa benyewe habasadiki bulozi/
L: lakini:
N: eh/
L: kiisha fujo:
N: mm/
L: kuingia:
N: mm/
L: hii maséparations: kuwa na Jamaa bengine balisema...?...
N: [overlapping] ... sasa bengine walisadiki/
L: sababu wakati wa fujo satan anaingia:
F: mm/
L: ni vile tu/ ilikuwa/ hata leo ingine katika ku kufukua fujo mbali mbali: wengine wanasema fulani: anailoka/
K: mm/
L: kufwatana bizazi/
F: mm/
L: sawa bizazi binaleta ile yote fujo/
F: mm/
L: lakini kwa sasa ku Jamaa: kama vile si tuko mu partie ya église: bale bote: habasadiki ile hapana/
 

22. N: And this like something I experienced.
L: Yes.
N: With my own family it started in '73, ’78 or ’79. A baba from Kalala’s group came up with the idea that the children in our family were becoming criminals. As if in the family there were persons who worked underground[78] and I should teach them (better).
F: Mm.
N: He wanted us to take up with that group, the one Kalala had started together with Kabole.
F: Mm.
N: I was the president of a youth group.
F: Mm.
N: Then Kabole or someone in her group...
L: ...?...
N: ...anyhow, someone said, people hate the president.
F: Mm.
N: Mm. What is going to happen is that it will be brought to (his) home. I told myself, fine, they expressed concern for my home. When I got to the house there was Mama Rosalie.
F: Mm.
N: Alright. I met them, they were in the midst of a seance. Mm, they were singing a hymn while she prayed over the people. When I arrived outside she was inside. The president comes, she said, let him inside.
F: Mm.
N: She came outside but I didn’t wait any longer and went straight into the living room.
F: Mm.
N: They introduced the head (of the gathering) and said, this is the president of the youth (group) of the Jamaa.
F: Mm.
N: Then there was prayer all around. They came (to me) and beat me with a stick. Mm. Someone was speaking in Tshiluba.
F: Mm.
N: They translated this: The president says that people really hate him. Why? When it comes to teaching, he does well.
F: Mm.
N: Also, at the university you are doing well. I am doing well, I said. (Then they told me) there is this sangaji of yours who has ill feelings toward you.
K: [overlapping] [chuckles]
N: Sangaji  means an aunt on your father’s side.
F: Yes, (I know).
N: Mm. It’s his aunt who hates him. That’s where you should watch out carefully.
F: Mm.
N: Yes. Your aunt is (involved) with spirits.
Furthermore, in (your) there is a youngster who has bad thoughts against you. He seeks to put a spell on you. While they talked like this I saw him coming forward. (I asked myself) why is this boy working with spirits? It means he is involved with sorcery. Why? His parents were not in the Jamaa. (Because) the parents were not in the Jamaa there was talk about him being involved in sorcery.
F: Mm.
N: After they had thought this over they said, president, you should go to the Kasai. It’s the Kasai (or) you are dead. I left (the meeting) and began to think about it. No, I told myself, everything they said is lies. Then, recently, I got a letter from people...
F: Mm.
N: ...in Kongolo ...?... saying, truly it is better for you to go around in rags but the children should finish school. (They will say) it’s a sign that he loved us.
K: Mm.
N: Still, had we followed them in what (was said) first here in Lubumbashi – although it was an aunt on mother’s side they would call her sangaji. I told myself, alright.[79] It was a certain Ngunye who spoke on that day, Agathe (was her first name).
Mm.
N: (That was) at mother’s place.
F: Mm.
N: I was then waiting at the house of a younger sibling.
F: Mm.
N: Now she (Nyungwe?) was a person who annoyed me. She would come to our place...
K: Yes.
N: ... (saying) sorcery would stay outside. I cut this off immediately. No, I said, this is still no good. [chuckles] Mm. That was when the group began to split up. In the end, I got tired of it and left.
F: Mm.
N: Mm. Kabole stayed on with her group.
F: I see.
N: Yes. So we [chuckles] – it was Kabole who had started this in our group. We did the (Jamaa) teaching in a place close to the SNCZ railroad tracks.
F: Mm.
N: Near the underpass.
F: Mm.
N: (In the building of the) FOC.[80] (One day) we got there when Kabole arrived with her group. They went straight (into a room) belonging to the Sisters to do their teaching and stayed there. When they had arrived I, as the president, told myself, as members of the youth committee, we welcome everyone. However when it came to exchanging greetings it was said no, to call out Jambo is enough. Why (I asked)? No, they said, in this round there are some among you who are involved in sorcery. If we greet them with handshakes we are going to catch sorcery. At that point, I said this is enough. [chuckles]
F: Mm.
N: That’s what they are running away from, sorcery. [pauses] Mm.
F: Now, why do you think people of the Jamaa overcome sorcery? (Because) they don’t believe in it – or?
K: Jamaa believe...?...
N: Well, the Jamaa, people in the Jamaa as such, do not believe in sorcery.
L: However.
N: Yes.
L: Then there was the conflict.
N: Mm.
L: That invaded (the Jamaa).
N: Mm.
L: When those split-ups occurred in the Jamaa some people said ...?...
N: [overlapping] ...then some believed (in sorcery).
L: Because with the split-ups Satan came in.
F: Mm.
L: That’s how it happened. Up to this day there are some who look for trouble here and there. Some say a certain person is doing sorcery.
K: Mm.
L: It follows bizazi.[81]
F: Mm.
L: Bizazi brings about all those conflicts.
F: Mm.
L: However, in the Jamaa, that is, in the part of it that is our church, no one believes in this.
 

23. F: [pause] oui/ ah: [pauses] ni kusema sasa: [pauses] munafanya tu nguvu: juu ya kui: enfin: ku: ku: eeh: kuwa na: batoto na bijana: wabijana mingi sasa/ ça c’est concentration/
N: ni vile/
F: alafu: kuingisha/ munaendelea naye?
L: ku?
F: kuingisha mu manjia/
N: ...?... njia/
L: manjia?
F: mm/
L: tulikuwa mwenye tulisimamisha/
F: mm/
L: tulisimamisha kwa kuchunga: mi: mipatano ya mafundisho/ kwa sababu: tangu kutoka: tulionekana kama: inafaa tupatane kwanza/
F: mm/
L: tuyue namna gani fujo ilitoka/
F: c’est ça/
L: sababu ya nini? Jamaa ilie: iliharibika/
F: c'est ça/
L: kwa sababu Jamaa tangu soixante: mu temps: mu se: wakati Baba Placide alifundisha: tangu cinquante-deux kuendelea mupaka cinquante-neuf Jamaa ilitembea vizuri sana/
F: mm/
L: lakini: kufika ma soixante: soixante-deux: soixante-trois: ubaya ukaanza kwa mutana: na Jamaa/
F: mm/
L: sasa wakati wapate kabisa: tulisema: tufunge kwanza mambo ya manjia/ mupate tupatane: mbele kupana ma: manjia/ na humu hapa njo tulikuwa natayarishwa watakupana ma: manjia/ mwaka humu/
F: ah mwaka humu?
L: eeh: sababu kunakuwa amani fasi yote:
F: mm/
L: na balikutayarisha iko tayari: alafu juu ya maproblèmes ya kanisa: njo inakuwa ruga tena: tukasema kumbe: tuangarie kwa njia moya tu ya kupata mukanda mbele sisi: si vile?
F: mm/
L: njo mupaka leo hii/ pale tuko tayari: tulitaka kutembea mwezi wa munane: ba...?...kwenda Kabinda: wala fasi yote/
F: bale baJamaa ingine: sawa: ba: ba: mwenye ku: kuitika waskofu: na bale ba: baValentin: bengine: bo banaendelea? banapata tena membres?
L: ma: kupata manjia?
F: non...
N: eeh: ?kuwa ingia/
L: mamembres?
F: oui
K: ...?...
L: mamembres beko banapata fasi moya moya/ fasi ingine habapate hapana/ kama vile Kalemie: habapate bamembres/
F: non/
L: sababu pale kulitoka mukanda wenyewe wa déclination kwa Moneigneur:
F: oui/
L: pale banakatala kabisa: wapende kabisa kusikia mambo ya Ja: ya Jamaa/ banasema: ikisikilika: l’état atatucondemner/ kwa sababu tuliandika ku l’état kama Jamaa tunakata: tunakatala/
F: [overlapping] tunakaala/ eheh/ kumbe unaona kama hata bo: bata: banaendelea kiloko kiloko?
L: aaah/
F: si kusema: ts: batakufa/
N: [overlapping] ts: inakuwa ?fingo/
L: hapana/ bita: banaendelea lakini: mambo ya bizazi itabateswa/
N: mm/
L: vizazi/
F: ya vizazi/
L: vizazi/
N: donc: magénérations...
F: ...oui oui oui/
L: itabateswa sana/
F: oui oui/
L: habaende bien hapana/ ...?...
F: juu ya nini: juu?
L: ile ya vizazi: sababu kuna maconcurrances: ni manque: Jamaa iko hivi/ tangu magumu kumalizika: wakati Baba Placide yee mwenyewe angali:
F: mm/
L: kizazi ilikuwa na kile ki: 
F: kimoja/
L: bon: kiisha Baba Placide pale anakwenda: wakati kunakuwa mutengano wa mbali mbali:
F: mm/
L: vizazi inakuwa potopoto sana/
F: mm/
L: maana yake: kama kuko fasi moya wee kuko
wababa ya njia ya tatu batano:
F: mm/
L: ni bizazi:
F: tano/
L: ni ni vizazi tano paka vile/ sasa huyu mwengine anafundisha: mwenzake: huyu ingine anasema kushere ba mwe: kwa mwengine/ mwanzo wa fujo/ na njo ile iko naye na leo/ sababu unaweza kuwa pale: banakutana ku assemblée pamoya: banafanya fête: lakini habapata: habapatane/
K: [overlapping] habapatane/
L: habana umoya hapana/
K: mm/
F: sawa vile tuliandika mu kitabu...
L: ...habapatana hapana/
N: ndiyo/ [chuckles]
L: vizazi iko mbali mbali/ sasa mu kanisa sisi tunapigania vizazi bisiwe/
K: ...?...
L: kama vile kintu anasema sura tatu mu sala munane:
F: oui/
L: anasema muangarie vizuri na mambo ya vizazi/ si tunapigania: japo ukazaa mutoto:
F: mm/
L: ku mawazo: ni mutoto yako:
F: mm/
L: lakini yo uwaze kama ni wa Yesu na Ma: Maria/
K: [overlapping] na Maria/
L: kwa sababu Baba Placide alisema kama: mufwate Yesu na Ma: na Maria/
F: [overlapping] na Maria/ mm/
L: sasa bo habafwate tena vile: asema huyu ni mutoto yangu/
F: mm/
L: baba hata anaharibika: mutoto ni mutoto yake tu/
F: eeh/
L: sasa ni kosa/ hii ina tu: inaleta mate: mateso/
F: tena bale ba: bengine bali: balianza na njia ya inne: na tano...?...
L: aah/
F: na ngapi?
N: [chuckles]
L: njo fujo ile/
F: na ngapi/
N: mm/
L: aah/ na njo paka unaona ku kanisa: wakati si tulianza na liste ya membres na mambo ya ...?...banaona biko nguvu sana/
F: mm/
L: maneno kama ita: itapotesa ile: ile mambo/ hata bengine banasema ile asema aah: namna gani: kabisa inatusoma bato: batoto/
K: [overlapping] batoto/
L: sasa si tunasema batoto ni wa kanisa: ni wa Yesu na Ma: na Maria/
F: mm/
L: ahah/
 

23. F: [pause] Yes, well [pauses], in other words [pauses], now you are making efforts to attract children and young people. There are many young people now, that’s what you concentrate on.
N: That’s right.
F: But what about initiation, do you continue with it?
L: With?
F: Initiating into the “ways” – the different grades.
N: ...?...grades.
L: The grades?
F: Mm.
L: We stopped with that.
F: Mm.
L: We stopped that to preserve agreement on teaching. Because, from the beginning it was clear to us that we first need to agree.
F: Mm.
L: So that we understand how the conflicts came about.
F: That’s it.
L: Why was it that the Jamaa fell apart?
F: That's it.
L: Because until ’60, at the time when Baba Placide taught, from ’52 to ’59, the Jamaa made progress and did very well.
F: Mm.
L: But when the sixties came, around ’62, ’63, things turned bad for the Jamaa.
F: Mm.
L: So that people would have enough time, we said let’s stop first with initiation. We should encounter each other[82] before we promise to confer grades. That’s where we are now, we are now ready and people will be initiated. (It is going to happen) this year.
F: Ah, this year.
L: Yes, because there is peace everywhere.
F: Mm.
L: And the preparations are done. But because problems still come up in the church we said, let us concentrate on one thing, which is to get our letter (of approval) first, right?
F: Mm.
L: That’s where things stand today. We stand ready and would like to travel in August, going to Kabinda, everywhere.
F: What about those other kinds of Jamaa, like the ones who submitted to the bishops, the group of Valentin and others – are they making progress? Do they get (new) members?
L: (You mean) people who get initiated?
F: No...
N: (People) who join.
L: (Just) members?
F: Yes.
K: ...?...
L: Here and there, they find new members, in other places they don’t. In Kalemie, for instance, they are not getting new members.
F: No.
L: Because it was there that the bishop’s letter of refusal came out.
F: Yes.
L: There they refused categorically to hear the case of the Jamaa. If it gets a hearing, they said, the government is going to condemn us because we wrote to the government that we reject the (Catholic) Jamaa.
F: [overlapping] We reject it, I see. In your opinion, will they nevertheless move on little by little?
L: Well...
F: It doesn’t mean they’ll disappear (lit. die).
N: [overlapping] well, it is ...?...
L: No. They’ll go on but the problem with bizazi is going to make them suffer.
N: Mm.
L: Vizazi.
F: (The problem with) vizazi.
L: Vizazi.
N: (It’s about) generations...
F: ...yes, yes, yes.
L: It’s going to cause them a lot of suffering.
F: Yes. Yes.
L: They won’t develop sufficiently.
F: Why is that?
L: Competition among vizazi has been a flaw. That’s how it is with the Jamaa. As long as Baba Placide himself was around there were no problems.
F: Mm.
L: A line of spiritual descent meant...
F: Unity.
L: After Baba Placide went away there came the time of splitting up.
F: Mm.
M: Vizazi were in a mess.
F: Mm.
L: Because when you were in one place with five members of the third degree...
F: Mm.
L: ... each was a line of descent.
F: Five of them.
L: There were five lines and that was it. One person would teach and another would say something to make him look ridiculous, that’s where the mess started. And that is the situation up to this day. You can come to a place and find them together in a meeting. They are celebrating but there is no encounter among them.
K: [overlapping] They don’t encounter each other.
L: They have no unity.
K: Mm.
F: I wrote about this in the book (on the Jamaa)...
L: ...they just don’t encounter each other.
N: That’s it. [chuckles][83]
L: The lines are far apart. Whereas in our church we fought for getting rid of lines.
K: ...?...
L: That is what the third chapter says in the eighth prayer.[84]
F: Yes.
L: It says watch out for problems with lines of descent. What separates us is this: You may have initiated a new member (lit. given birth to a child)...
F: Mm.
L: ... and think it is your child...
F: Mm.
L: Whereas you should think of it as the child of Jesus and Ma: Mary.
K: [overlapping] And Maria.
L: Because Baba Placide said, follow Jesus and Mary.
F: [overlapping] And Mary. Mm.
L: Those who say this one is my child don’t keep to this.
F: Mm.
L: A father may go wrong, his child is still his child.
F: I see.
L: (To lay claim on a child) is a fault. This is what makes us suffer.
F: What about others who began to introduce a fourth or a fifth grade (of initiation)?
L: Aah.
F: (Who knows) how many.
N: [chuckles]
L: That is a mess.
F: (Who knows) how many.
N: Mm.
L: Yes. It’s something you noticed in the church at the time when we began with a list of members. It turned out that the lines of descent[85] made this really difficult.
F: Mm.
L: Because this business (of lines) will be a disaster. There were some who said, how can this happen? By all means, the list should contain our children.
K: [overlapping] Our children.
L: Then we said, children belong to the church, they (are the children) of Jesus and Mary.
F: Mm.
L: Yes.
 

24. F: [pause] na: ts: munaona: tena balinielezea kwa kama: [pauses] ff: mara mara: tena mankundi ingine balitoka mu Jamaa: balifanya kanisa yabo/ sawa ile: ile: ya Troisième Testament/ si njo ilitoka Jamaa vile vile?
N: mm?
F: eh na wanasema tshi: tshisovu: tsi: tshisatu: ou quelque chose comme ça: comme ...?.../ hamu: hamufahamu?
N: non: ile...
L: ...hapana/
N: eh: ...?...humu/
L: ya humu hapana/ lakini sisi tu tulikuwa na magumu: ya watu wawili/ walifanya kanisa yao/ na ilimalizika/
F: aah ilimalizika/
L: kiisha si kuanza église: kuna ule mwenyee nilifungwa naye: aliformer: kanisa yake: anasema: mi niko fondateur/
F: eheh/
L: nafonder maneno ya Baba Placido haikwenda muzuri: mi sasa naifonder tena namna: ingine/
F: ni nani huyu?
L: Kitume: Mwamba Elaji/
F: ahah/
L: tuko na historique yake murefu sana/ document yake iko munene kabisa/
N: mm/
F: c’est vrai?
L: tulitembea kirefu sana: pour l’état/
N: dossier ya nani: ilikuwa très volumineux/
L: munene sana/
F: mu Kalemie vile vile?
L: mu Kalemie/
N: ...?...
L: njo mwenzangu nilikuwa na collègue wangu/
F: ahah/
L: na ni yee tulipigana naye vita sana/
F: ahah/
L: sasa yee akageuza: asema: minakuwa fondateur/ nafonder maneno ya Baba Placide haikuwa bien: mina:
N: mm/
L: naitengeneze tena muzuri/ mi nikasema hapana/
F: mm/
N: Placide alikuwa kuharibisha/
L: sisi...
N: ...?...[chuckles]
L: sasa yee naye akashindwa/ tukamuacha/
F: mais sababu ya nini alise: aliona namna gani? Placide yee aliharibisha: juu...
L: yeye...
F: ...alipashwa ku: ku:
L: alio...
F: kujidéfendre/
L: alidéfendre/ aliandika/ tuko na document yake/
F: [overlapping] ha?
L: aliandika asema: Placido: yeye: alifundisha mawazo ya ku katolik/ ni Jamaa Nazareth/
F: oui/
N: mm/
L: bon/ mi sasa nafundisha: Jamaa: fondation: ya èglise/ Placide hakuwa na: na église/
F: [overlapping] na église/ ahah/
L: aah/
N: Placide alikuwa prêtre catholique:
L: sasa:
N: hii yake: ni m: Jamaa yake ilikuwa naye katolik/
L: sasa akafanya doctrine yake: akasema imani yangu: tunaamini Yesu na Maria/ lakini: isi: eeh: banani: Yesu na Maria tu baweke njia hii: moya/
F: ...?...
L: siku kuu: moya/
F: ...?...
L: tena Yesu: ni baba/
F: mm/
L: si mwana/ njo imani yake/
F: ahah/
L: si tukasema hapana/ ile imani ni ingi:
F: ni ingine/
L: yee pale tunakosana:
F: mm/
L: na yee anaanguka/ yake inamalizika/ alikuwa na groupes/
F: alikuwa na groupes?
L: fasi mbali mbali/ Kabinda: hata ku Lubumbashi/
F: ah?
L: balikuwa napiga huyu vita ile bagroupes yake/
F: baliji: balijitaya...
L: ... ah: balikuwa na: na kuyenga ...
F: balikuwa na jiba: na jina?
L: eh: fonda: fondateur/
N: eeh/
F: mais non: eh donc: ile groupes yake/
L: Eglise de la Sainte Famille Maternité à Porte/
N: mm/
F: maternité à porte?
L: à porte eeh/
N: maternité: filiation: il est à porte/
L: à porte
N and L: [laugh]
F: c’est vrai?
L: eeh/ tulitumbu/ vita kuwa sana: ilikuwa kali yaone/
F: mu mwaka gani?
N: eh: pa tengo...
L: ...tulianza: vita tangu quatre-vingt-deux:
F: oui/
L: inamalizika mu quatre-vingt-cinq/
F: paka hapa sasa?
L: aah: divisionnaire yee akamaliza/
N: mm/
L: njo ana weka mu: mu mise en garde aseme: kuko na fujo/ njo anapona/
N: mm/ na ile: ile njo nani: ali: alisukuma nani: ...?.../
L: eeh/
N: hafanye fujo/
K: hafanye fujo/
N: ile iko nani: alikuwa mu ...?.../
L: sababu ni kabila moya/
F: ah bon/
L: eheh/
F: kabila: kabila ya nani: ya?
L: eeh/ kele: ka: tu baKasongo/
F: na baKasongo/
L: ahah/
N: mm/
K: ts: ni ?kasinga ehh/
L: kiisha kidogo alitoka mwengine ni pale anakuwa na à peu près bantu elfu inne/ Kembe/
pale ku Mbuji Mayi/
F: ku Mbuji Mayi?
L: ahah/ yeye: kiisha kumupa: ordre de mission yetu: anekwenda kugeuza église anasema anakuwa Eglise de la Sainte Famille Orthodoxe/
F: orthodoxe?
L: ahah/
F: [laughs]
L: sasa si tukapiga vita ile: kuandika mikanda: kuandika mikanda: tukamutomba: bantu bote banamusomba bo:
F: eeh/
L: anabakia bule/ yake inaisha naye/
F: ça  y est/
L: njo vita mbili tunapigana/
F: eeh/
L: na ya tatu ni hii ya: réprésentant/
F: ya réprésentant ya  ...?...
L: [overlapping] tangu...?.../ he/ [chuckles]
F: mais ni yeye: ni peke yake? eko: eko na bantu banamufwata?
L: hapana/ haha/ [chuckles]
K: ...?...
L: yee habatafwata/
F: sasa nani ana: atakuwa réprésentant sasa?
L: ni sisi...
F: uko na ingine?
L: ni paka sisi wangali tumika/ kazi yote/
F: c’est ça/
L: na répresentant suppléant Tambu Kibongo mu Kibondo/
F: mm/
L: huyu chef de personnel/
F: mm/
L: wa SCD/ njo tuko naye/
F: eyo/
L: ahah/
[pause]

24. F: [pauses] You see, I was also told [pauses] that now and then other groups left the Jamaa and set up their churches. (The church of the) Third Testament, for instance, did it not also come from the Jamaa?
N: Mm?
F: And (another one) called Tshisovu, Tshisatu, or something like that – you don’t know about it?
N: No, that...
L: ...no.
N: Well, not here.
L: Not from around here. But we did have problems with two people who started their own churches. That’s over now.
F: Ah, it’s over.
L: When we started our church, there was this person who was in jail with me – he set up his church, calling himself The Founder.
F: I see.
L: I am founding (a church, he said,) because Baba Placide’s (Jamaa) is not going well. Now I'll set it up differently.
F: Who was this?
L: Kitume, Mwamba Elaji.
F: I see.
L: We have his history, a long document.
N: Mm.
F: Is that so?
L: We went to great lengths (to document that story) for the government.
N: The file on him was quite voluminous.
L: Huge.
F: That was also in Kalemie?
L: In Kalemie.
N: ...?...
L: He used to be my pal and colleague.
 F: I see.
L: He is the one we had this big fight with.[86]
F: I see.
L: He had changed and announced, I am the founder (of a new church). I do this because (the Jamaa) of Baba Placide is no good. I’ll...
N: Mm.
L: I am going to put things right. I said no way.
F: Mm.
N: As if Placide could have wrecked (the Jamaa).
L: We...
N: (That’s ridiculous.) [chuckles]
L: In the end (Kitume) lost out and we left him alone.
F: But why did he think Placide ruined (the Jamaa)?
L: He...
F: ...he had to...
L: He did...
F: ... to defend himself.
L: He defended (himself) in writing. We have the document.
F: [overlapping] Really?
L: He wrote that the thoughts Placide taught were Catholic. That was the Jamaa of Nazareth.
F: Yes.
N: Mm.
L: Alright. What I am teaching now is about founding the Jamaa as a church. Placide had no church.
F: [overlapping] No church. I see.
L: Yes.
N: Placide was a Catholic priest.
L: So...
N: His Jamaa was Catholic, too.
L: So (Kitume) made up his own doctrine. My creed, he said, is that we believe in Jesus and Mary. Jesus and Mary should be seen walking together.
F: ...?...
L: Thy should have one and the same holiday.
F: ..?...
L: Furthermore, Jesus is father.
F: ...?...
L: Not child. That was (Kitume’s) creed.
F: I see.
L: We said no, this creed is diff...
F: ...different.
L: That’s where we disagreed.
F: Mm.
L: And he caved in, his case was finished. (But) he had groups (of followers).
F: He had groups?
L: Here and there, in Kabinda, even in Lubumbashi.
F: Ah?
L: They were fighting this war, those groups of his.
F: They called themselves...
L: ...ah, they were also building (a church)...
F: ...did they have a name?
L: Yes, Fondateur.
N: Yes.
F: No, I mean his groups.
L: Church of the Holy Family Motherhood at the Door.[87]
N: Mm.
F: Motherhood at the Door?
L: At the Door,  yes
N: Motherhood (meaning) a line of descent is the door.
L: At the door.
N and L: [laugh][88]
F: Is that true?
L: Yes. We blew up and the war was on, something fierce like you haven’t seen before.
F: What year was that?
N: Eh, the separation...
L: ... we began fighting in ’82.
F: Yes.
L: It was over in ’85.
F: That recently?
L: Yes, it was the Head of Department who put an end to it.
N: Mm.
L: He issued a warning concerning the conflict and that took care of it.
N: Mm. He is the one who supported (us) ...?....
L: Yes.
N: (Telling Kitume) to desist.
K: To desist. 
N: He was was the one in...?...
F: Because (Kitume) was of the same kind.
F: I see.
L: Yes.
F: (Same) kind as who?
L: Well, like the followers of Kasongo.
F: The followers of Kasongo.
L: Yes.
N: Mm.
K: (Kitume) is a kasinga.[89]
L: A little later another one came up, a certain Kembe, who had about four thousand followers in Mbuji Mayi.
F: In Mbuji Mayi?
L: He had our authorization but then he changed and said his was the Orthodox Church of the Holy Family.
F: Orthodox?
L: Yes.
F: [laughs]
L: Then we fought with him. We wrote one letter after the other. We crushed him and every one turned away from him.
F: I see.
L: He was left empty-handed and his (church) was finished, too.
F: There we are.
L: Those were two fights we had.
F: Yes.
L: The one with our representative was the third.
F: Which representative was that? [90]
L: [overlapping] ...?... he. [chuckles]
F: But he was alone – or did he have followers?
L: No. [chuckles]
K: ...?...
L: No one was going to follow him.
F: So who is going to be your legal representative now?
L: It’s us...
F: Do you have another one?
L: It’s just us who keep doing all the work.
F: That’s it.
L: Together with an alternate representative, Tambu Kibongo, who lives in Kibondo.
F: Mm.
L: He is the head of personnel (there).
F: Mm.
L: Of SCD.[91] He is the one we have now.
F: I see.
L: Yes.
 

25. F: bon/ tulisumbulia wee/
L: [chuckles]
F: eeeh: si: sijue kama niko na: ulizo tena: [pauses] nafaa mbele nikumbuke kiloko: mais: pengine muko na ulizo sasa/
L: ndiyo/
F: kiisha tunafanya kapause kiloko:
L: ahah/
N: ndiyo/
F: tupumuzika: nitakuomba: kutufundisha kiloko: kiisha: kiisha: tutakulya/
L: sisi: ulizo letu: ni kufwatana mamembres ya commité directeur: balikuwa napenda ufike Kalemie/
F: aah/ oui/
L: njo kichi ya kwanza/
F: oui/
L: kwa sababu walisikia furaha/ kwa sababu tangu tulianza kupata hii magumu: kuna kitumaini/
F: mm/
L: kitumaini chetu hakikotoka kwa mutu/ kinatoka kwa Mungu/
F: mm/
L: yee mwenyewe/
F: mm/
L: eheh? analeta kitumaini kama: hii mambo mupigano mutashinda tu/ na shee tulimutapata msaada/
F: mm/
L: wa watu wengine wanaweza kusaidia/
F: mm/
L: sasa: ulizo yetu wakati tulipata habari kama kweli kuna kule Père Fabian anakuya: sasa balipenda/ bakuone kwanza macho:
F: mm/
L: bakuulize:
F: mm/
L: eeh/ unaweza kupa tous les mots ilikuwa na Baba Placido/ sababu: sisi ni wazi kama: tunapata njia: na kufahamu Mungu ku njia ya Baba Placido/
F: mm/
L: kwa sababu kadiri alitufundisha: tunapata nguvu/ si bote tulikuwa batu kutembea ovyo ovyo/ lakini yee aliturudisha njia/ ya kimuntu/
F: mm/
L: na tunayua muntu iko namna gani/ na anatembea nje/ na tunarudisha mapendo ile ilikuwa na bankambo ya asili ya zamani kabisa/
F: eyo/
L: sasa tuliona kama ni kweli/ kama: na weye/
F mm/
L: kadiri uko unatafuta maisha yako: na kadiri wee biko kuona: eeh: unatuwazia nini?
F: mm/
L: kufwatana ile magumu yote: tuko nayo/ na magumu inaonekana kumalizika sababu Jamaa inaanza kurudi katika umo:
F: umoja/
L: [overlapping] umoja/ ni ulizo ya bamembres ya commité directeur/
F: oui/ oui/ mbele: eh: munapashwa: vraiment munapashwa kusikia bien:
L: mm/
F:ile [pauses] kazi yangu/
L: hh/ ts/
F: unanitaya tena monpère/ non: mi sina pre: père/
L: ndiyo/
N: [chuckles]
F: ile: munaacha/ munaacha/ unapashwa kuacha ile/
L: ndiyo/
F: eh: kazi yangu [pauses]: maneno: juu ya nini? kama unaitaya père: munakuwa tu na: na office yangu: non/ ile sina naye/
L: eheh/
F: kama una: unataka mufano: niko sawa planton/
L: eheh/
F: messager/
L: hh/
F: ah?
L: ahah/
F: kupata: habari kule:
N: kupeleka/
F: kupeleka...
L: aha/
F: kupeleka: kule/ ah?
L: ndiyo/
F: njo: roho yangu/
L: hh/
F: njo: kazi yangu/
L: mm/
F: kumbe/ bon/ mais: niko na mawazo yangu/
L: hh/
F: niliona: kwa kama: Placide yee mwenyewe: alikuwa muntu wa: kutafuta/ kweli/ [pauses] anaachana sana sana kwa ba: ba: banani: bamissionnaires bamingi/
L: ahah/
N: mm/
F: alikuwa yee na kosa yake vile vile/
L: ndiyo/
N: eeh/
L: ni mutu/
N: ni mutu/
F: ni muntu/
L: eheh/
F: mais: mawazo yake mi niliona zamani déjà: niliona ni bien/ surtout: hii mawazo ya bumuntu/ mm?
L. mm/
F: maneno mawazo ya bumuntu: iko na: nguvu ya: kuleta umoja na wote/
L: mm/
F: mm?
L: hh/
F: tuko na bengine: banasema ooh she hatusadiki Mungu: Mungu kama iko: sijui ya: eh? [claps]
L: mm/
F: sawa vile/
L: mm/
F: hata mi/
L: mm/
F: ku mawazo/
L: mm/
F: sijue/ [claps] kama unaniuliza: unasadiki Mungu: sasa mi si: napashwa ku: kujibu: ts: sijue/ ah? ile ni mambo: nilifwata: nilifwata sérieusement: miaka mingi mais: sasa: bon/ mais [claps]/ lakini: kama unaniuliza [pauses] unatafuta: unatufuta nini: ...?...
L: ...unatuwazia nini?
F: ni bumuntu/
L: hh/
F: na bumuntu: tunaanza na bumuntu/
L: eeh/ kufwatana magumu tuko naye/
F: c’est ça/ c’est ça/
L: eheh/
F: donc: mbele ya kazi yangu: enfin: [pauses] et à part: eh?
[recording stops]

25. F: Alright. We had a long conversation.
L: [chuckles]
F: Let me see now, I don’t know whether I have another question [pause]. I need a moment to think about it. But maybe you have a question now.
L: Yes.
F: After that we take a little break.
L: Yes.
N: That’s it.
F: We take a rest before I ask you to give us a little mafundisho[92] and then we are going to eat.
L: Our question comes from the members of the steering committee, they wanted you to come to Kalemie.
F: Ah, yes.
L: That’s their foremost concern.
F: Yes.
L: Because they were delighted. What with all the problems we have had – there is hope.
F: Mm.
L: Our hope does not come from man, it comes from God.
F: Mm.
L: (God) Himself.
F: Mm.
L: You understand? He gives us hope: you are going to prevail in all this fighting. And we had help.
F: Mm.
L: From other people who were able to help us.
F: Mm.
L: Now, when we had the news that Father Fabian is actually coming (to Lubumbashi), people would love to see him for the first time.
F: Mm.
L: So that they could ask him questions.
F: Mm.
L: Yes. You can recite everything (lit. give all the words) Baba Placide had to say. Because clearly, if we found the way to get to know God it was  by way of Baba Placide.
F: Mm.
L: Through his teachings we found strength. We all used to be people who went around aimlessly. But he brought us back to the way of being human.
F: Mm.
L: And we know how it is to be human and how to move forward. And we bring back the love our first ancestors had, long, long ago.
F: I see.
L: Then we saw that it was true that you, too...
F: Mm.
L: ... have been a searcher in your life and in the things you observed. What are the thoughts you have for us?
F: Mm.
L: Regarding all the problems we have, problems that seem to be over (now) because the Jamaa begins to return to uni:
F: Unity.
L: [overlapping] Unity. That is the question the members of the steering committee have.
F: Yes. Yes. First you must really understand.
L: Mm.
F: [pauses] What my work is about.
L: Yes.
F: You keep calling me Father. No, I am not a Father.
L: No.
N: [chuckles]
F: Just give up (callling me Father). You must give it up.
L: Yes.
F: Well, about my work [pauses]. Why do I insist on that? When you call me Father you give me an official standing. No, I don’t have that.
L: I see.
F: If you want an example, I am a kind of planton.[93]
L: Yes.
F: A messenger.
L: Yes.
F: You understand?
L: Yes.
F: Picking up news in one place.
N: Bringing it.
F: Bringing it...
L: Yes.
F: ...bringing it to another. Right?
L: That’s it.
F: That is what inspires me.
L: Yes.
F: That is my job.
L Mm.
F: Alright. However, I do have my own thoughts.
L: Yes.
F: I saw that Placide himself was a true seeker. [pauses] He was quite different from many missionaries.
L: Yes.
N: Mm.
F: He, too, had its faults.
L: Yes.
N: Yes.
L: He was human.
N: He was human.
F: He was human.
L: Yes.
F: Still, already long ago I realized that his thoughts were good. Above all the idea of bumuntu (what it means to be human). Right?
L: Mm.
F: Because the idea of bumuntu has the strength to bring unity to all.
L: Mm.
F: Mm?
L: Yes.
F: Some of us say oh, we don’t believe in God.
Does God exist? I don’t know. You understand? [claps]
L: Mm.
F: Things like that.
L: Mm.
F: Even I.
L: Mm.
F: In my thoughts.
F: Mm.
F: I don’t know. [claps] When you ask me do I believe in God then I have to answer, well, I don’t know. You understand? It is something that I pursued seriously, for many years. But now (no longer). However [claps] if you ask me [pauses], what is it you are seeking...
L: ... what are the thoughts you have for us?
F: It is bumuntu.
L: Yes.
F: We begin with bumuntu.
L: Yes. And following up on our problems.
F: That’s it. That’s it.
L: Yes.
F: So, (that comes) before my job [pauses], and apart from it, right?
[recording stops]